On Tue, 23 Jul 1996 21:37:23 -0400, "Zoli Fekete, keeper of
hungarian-faq" > wrote:

>
>On Tue, 23 Jul 1996, Bob Hosh wrote:
>> Pacal is not lung (tudo); it is tripe, which is part of the stomach of
>> ruminants used for food.
>
> I believe this main ingredient is called 'bendo3' in Hungarian, however I
>think pacal may, and usually does, have smaller amounts of other inside
>bovine parts as well. A lot of people love it as a specialty dish,
>although on this one I side with Eva ;-) considering it an awful meal.
>

Would y'all knock it off with this disgusting food! Yuck! This is not
Scotland, you know.

I had my taste buds all set for the trip to Toronto next month, now I
will be terrified that the Hungarian restaurants will try to sneak
some tripe by me. :-)

Seriously, any recommendations for a restaurant in Toronto that serves
a decent fata'nye'ros?

Heah in Birmingham, the best I can do, Hungarian-food wise, is to
pretend that grits can be made into grizgaluska.

You lucky Northerners, you.

Bandi

> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rozsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
      <OR>  
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> =============================================================

In article >,
 says...
>
>..or sour-cherry soup.
>
>I am out-of-town on a weekly basis for a while, so on Friday nights I
get a
>healthy portion of e-mail. It's hard to take this concentration of
wisdom.
>The biggest surprise? Joe Szalai concedes (on this one!). Dumbfounding,
indeed.
>
>Here are two versions of the meggyleves:
>
>1. As my wife makes it, with her words: take three glass containers
(about
>1/2 liter) of preserved pitted Morello Cherry in its own juice (it's
sold at
>ethnic food stores). Empty it in a pot and add one more container of
water.
>Add sugar, lemon juice and a little salt. Bring to a boil.
>
> Make something called ereszte'k, as follows: mix an egg yolk with a
>teaspoonful of flour. Slowly add to it from the hot soup mixture (while
>continuously mixing) until it becomes a paste. Then very slowly ad this
to
>the soup, while continuously mixing. Bring to a slow boil. Chill, eat
(goes
>very fast).
>
>What can go wrong: if you  do the eresztek part too fast, "o2sszemegy"
>(according to Orszagh: it curdles???).
>
>Oh yes, the quantities: she doesn't know. Keep tasting and whatever is
>missing...(her words).
>
>2. From Paul Kovi's Transylvanian Cuisine (I did not try it):
>
>2 lbs sour cherries, cleaned, washed, and pitted
>1/2 cup sugar
>salt to taste
>juice of 1 lemon, or to taste
>2 egg yolks
>1 cup light cream
>
>Boil 2 quarts of water in a pot and add cherries. Cook for 10 minutes,
>gradually adding the sugar, salt and lemon juice.
>
>Mix the egg yolks with cream and add to the soup. Heat soup on low,
stirring
>constantly until it thickens. Serve soup hot (hot???????) or chilled.
>
>Gabor D. Farkas

For those who visit Hungary:  You can get powdered meggyleves by Knorr.
There are a lot of Knorr soups available in Hungary which are not
available here, like majgaluska leves (liver dumpling soup)etc.
Incidentally, I serve meggyleves with sour cream, or, for cholesterol
conscious people, with yoghurt.

Agnes

In article >, "Peter A.
Nemenyi" > writes:

>I must come to the aid of Mr. Bihari.  I provided  him  with  the
>tape recordings of the case between me and various members of the
>scandals. Mr. Bihari doesn't have to  shut up,  because  all  the
>proofs regarding to this matter, are valid.
>
>But the gatherings of all  the necessary evidence is  not finished
>yet, just as the case is still  in  a  pending state.  I ask your
>patient towards Mr, Barna.
>
>Thank You: NPA.

Sorry, Mr. Nemenyi -- "Because I said so" won't be adequate documentation
in this instance. Barna has already begun trying all out to make his case
on here. The type of hyperbolic bluffing you two are engaging in doesn't
fool any of us. Either post the detailed, sourced documents to back up
your claims or just admit that you don't have anything.
Sam Stowe

"When you find the one you might become,
Remember part of me is you..."
 -- "Simple Song", Lyle Lovett

Eva S. Balogh wrote:
>
> At 10:53 PM 7/16/96 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> >>The only thing is that Joe Szalai, Tibor
> >>Benke, and Eva Durant hate to admit that the cause of the bolshevik
> >>revolution was war weariness and economic exhaustion, instead of capitalism
> >>per se.
> >
> >I'll admit it the day you admit that 1956 was a "szabadsa'gharc". ;-)
>
>         Oh, I admit. It was an "icipici szabadsagharc," and hardly anyone
> calls it that.
>
>         Eva Balogh


I don't know about you, but I'd very happy to get a buck from everyone
that does!!
Jozsi

>
> Jozsi!  Where on earth did your mom got the veal from??
>
> Nobody had libasult (roasted goose) on Sunday?  Also, many spring and
> fall sundays we went hiking and thus our dinner was korozott stored in
> green peppers, and hard boiled eggs...
>
> Agnes


I think she just happened to be at right place at the right time: standing in
que in front of the butcher shop
when the delivery wagon arrived.
Jozsi

Following NPA's latest dark hints I actually took the trouble to call the
Human Resources manager at Argonne. She wouldn't comment on the rumor that
NPA's supervisor was laid off, or tell me who that person was. So unless NPA
shares this piece of information, we will never have an authoritative second
opinion on the extent of the causes that led to NPA's resignation. As to
whether this resignation was coerced, the HR manager said "believe me, we
don't have handcuffs at Argonne".

I also asked her about what seems to many as excessive zeal, saying that in
most places an incident like this would first lead to a verbal reprimand (or
perhaps a written warning placed on his record) but not to immediate
resignation. Her answer was that for the first incident this would be true at
Argonne as well.  Needless to say, she couldn't and wouldn't tell me whether
there were prior incidents -- readers must draw their own conclusions.

Joe Pannon's amusing theories about the Anti-Defamation League notwithstanding
NPA could go ahead and sue the union for failure to represent him, or even sue
Argonne. However, NPA's reluctance to provide any avenues for independent
confirmation of his story for those who are a bit skeptical ("Joe Pannon has
seen my proofs" just doesn't cut it, sorry) indicates that the story, even to
the extent it's true, has some serious holes.

In the US system of justice, which NPA managed to cast in a rather negative
light on Hungarian Radio, there is such a thing as a "discovery phase". If I
were a lawyer for the ADL the first thing I'd look at would be NPA's record at
Argonne. As someone on s.c.m suggested the other day, NPA could have already
had "some butter on his head" before this whole thing started, even if he was
cited for good work.

Fortunately, I'm no ADL lawyer and I don't have to subpoena Argonne's records
on NPA, hear the testimony of his supervisor, or in any way try to get to the
bottom of this.  With this phonecall to Argonne I figure I've done my civic
duty and satisfied myself that NPA has not been denied due process. So back to
more substantive issues, like how Karl Marx was at the root of the 1848
revolution...

Andra1s Kornai

At 1:31 a.m. 7/25/96, Andy Rozsa wrote:

>Heah in Birmingham, the best I can do, Hungarian-food wise, is to
>pretend that grits can be made into grizgaluska.
>
>You lucky Northerners, you.

Once, when I was going to college in Sacramento, I had a friend who was
from the south.  I helped him move his stuff to his mother's when he was
leaving for Brazil to be in the Peace Corps.  His mother fed me a dinner
that was remarkably like our "vadasmarha" (beef venison style) including
the "gomboc" (balls made of soaked bread cubes and eggs and boiled.  When I
commented on it, she said it was a normal Georgian dish -- she was from
there.

Tibor Benke

At 9:46 p.m. 7/24/96, Joe Szalai wrote:

>"Chicken Paprika" and "Goulash"(that spelling sucks, big time!) are the
>foods most often associated with Hungarian cuisine.  But how would
>non-Hungarians know about the real, popular, comfort foods that Hungarians
>eat?  It concerns me somewhat that someone may pick up a copy of Lang's "The
>Cuisine of Hungary" and prepare a meal of "Peach in Champagne Soup",
>"Stuffed Breast of Veal Bourgeoise", and "Baked Prunes Radva'nszky", and
>believe that they're having an Hungarian meal.
>
>Many of the contributors to this list indicated that the foods at Sunday
>dinner are fairly typical.  What about other foods we eat?  What foods were,
>or are, common in your kitchen?  Perhaps we can get a list going to help
>non-Hungarians familiarize themselves with *real* Hungarian food.
>
>I'll start by listing a few of the foods we ate often.
>
>To:lto:tt ka'poszta          Cabbage rolls
>Rakott krumpli               Layered potatoes
>Tu'ro's te'szta              Noodles with cottage cheese
>Krumplis te'szta             Noodles with potatoes
>Po:rko:lt                    Porkolt
>

 Rakott Kelkaposzta  (Savoy Cabbage, ground beef&pork, sour cream --
layered and baked)

 nothing like kolbasz and/or szalami or disznosajt (headcheese) with fresh
bread and green peppers and tomatoes for breakfast.  Not to speak of
kocsonya (aspic usually of pigs feet and/or head)

Teperto" and red onions with bread

Teperto"s Pogacsa  (Teperto" is the meat left over when they render lard,
pogacsa is a  biscuit 's'=[sh] is the ending meaning 'with' but in this
case really 'in')

Tibor Benke

well the reason i am asking ,is i know a girl who works and lives in gyor
 and i want to know if she has any access to a computer , so maybe you can
help me, thank you ve5ry much, steve in canada

I'd like to add to Joe's list at least two comfort foods that were common and
much appreciated in our household:

habart bableves        creamed navy bean soup
zoldbab leves          green bean soup

Bob Hosh

Dear Cyber-Friends,

       The two products of rendering pork fat are:

                    1. Lard and,
                    2. Crackling (Yum!!!)

       Tibor is right that  cracklings are delish  with fresh bread.
    I know, because I have been rendering my own lard, for ever.
       How about adding zoldborsoleves (sweat pea soup) to the grow-
    ing list of comfort foods. It is one of my favorite,  especially
    the way my mother used to do it.
       It is time to salivate,
                                   Amos

At 08:06 PM 7/24/96 -0700, Jozsi Hill wrote:

>Eva S. Balogh wrote:
>>
>> At 10:53 PM 7/16/96 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:
>>
>> >>The only thing is that Joe Szalai, Tibor
>> >>Benke, and Eva Durant hate to admit that the cause of the bolshevik
>> >>revolution was war weariness and economic exhaustion, instead of >>
>>capitalism per se.
>> >
>> >I'll admit it the day you admit that 1956 was a "szabadsa'gharc". ;-)
>>
>>         Oh, I admit. It was an "icipici szabadsagharc," and hardly anyone
>> calls it that.
>>
>>         Eva Balogh
>
>
>I don't know about you, but I'd very happy to get a buck from everyone
>that does!!
>Jozsi

You won't get rich that way, Jozsi.  Nobody that I know calls 1956 a
"szabadsagharc'.  Oh sure, there are some people on this list and s.c.m who
call it that, but I don't know them.  If you want to strike it rich how
about one of those lucrative social programmes that Eva Balogh keeps
yammering about?

Joe Szalai

Dear fellow-listmembers,

I would like to speak up for the much-maligned and discriminated-against
tripe!  (Not the kind that often gets published on the Internet;-), but
the kind that goes into "drstkova polevka")!  By now it wouldn't be at all
a surprise to me to learn that there's a Hungarian version of this spicey
soup, rich with a thick base and pieces of well-cooked tripe in it: on a
cold rainy day accompanied by a couple of crusty-outside/soft and yummy
inside "rohlik", or several slices of that bread like no bread I can ever
find here in the states, the light rye with the chewy crust and the weight
and substance to the insides...  Auvajs!

I admit I've never had the courage to try to _cook_ this dish (dealing
with the tripe fresh from the grocery store) but when my Czech friends
make it, it is well worth summoning the courage to try to _eat_ it.

Tripe's a trip!

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

At 09:14 AM 7/25/96 EDT, Hugh Agnew wrote:

>Tripe's a trip!

...to the toilet.

Joe Szalai

On Jul 25,  9:14am, Hugh Agnew wrote:
> Subject: Re: Pacsni
> Dear fellow-listmembers,
>
> I would like to speak up for the much-maligned and discriminated-against
> tripe!  (Not the kind that often gets published on the Internet;-), but
> the kind that goes into "drstkova polevka")!  By now it wouldn't be at all
> a surprise to me to learn that there's a Hungarian version of this spicey
> soup, rich with a thick base and pieces of well-cooked tripe in it: on a
> cold rainy day accompanied by a couple of crusty-outside/soft and yummy
> inside "rohlik", or several slices of that bread like no bread I can ever
> find here in the states, the light rye with the chewy crust and the weight
> and substance to the insides...  Auvajs!
>
> I admit I've never had the courage to try to _cook_ this dish (dealing
> with the tripe fresh from the grocery store) but when my Czech friends
> make it, it is well worth summoning the courage to try to _eat_ it.
>
> Tripe's a trip!
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Hugh Agnew
> 
>-- End of excerpt from Hugh Agnew

I agree with Hugh, if properly prepared, tripe can be a delicious trip! Similar
to the gustatory delight of getting the feet served to you from the pot of
chicken porkolt!  YUM!!!!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 25 Jul 1996, Amos J. Danube wrote:
>        How about adding zoldborsoleves (sweat pea soup) to the grow-

 That with liver dumplings is a real winner :-)!
- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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In article >, "Barney the
Purple Dinosaur L. Bihari" > writes:

>PS.  Hey Sammy boy, rumor has it that in real life you are Lyle's hair
>dresser.:-)))  Wow!  Iiiiis thiiiis trueeee?  No wonder you advertise
>him in each and every barf of yours.
>
>
Uh, huh. I didn't think you had any concrete evidence to back up your
claims. And you won't be getting a call from Letterman anytime soon to
come write material for him. Once again, Barna, either post the evidence
to back up your claims or shut up. You've already convinced me you're a
dumbass. And thanks to the unintended evidence provided in your own posts,
I don't doubt you've probably convinced a few others of the same.
Sam Stowe

"C'mon, honey, think about
it -- a jet engine, a riding lawn
mower...Someone was bound
to put 'em together eventually..."
-- Tim "The Toolman" Taylor

On Jul 25, 10:31am, Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq wrote:
> Subject: Re: Food - comfort and otherwise -
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> On Thu, 25 Jul 1996, Amos J. Danube wrote:
> >        How about adding zoldborsoleves (sweat pea soup) to the grow-
>
>  That with liver dumplings is a real winner :-)!

      Right you are, Zoli. Just shows you how long it has been, I have
      almost forgotten about it.
                                   Amos

Eva Balogh wrote:

>I am just curious. Did you ask the "various members of the scandals"
>about using a tape recorder or you just happened to have one in your
>pocket and at the appropriate time you simply began to roll.

Let it be my business for the time being. :-) I don't think, I will
discuss any inside informations with you. You go can go back to your
ANL. mole, I figure this out yourself.

NPA.

>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 13:47:26
>To: "Amos J. Danube" > (by way of Aniko Dunford
>)
>From: Aniko Dunford >
>Subject: Re: Food - comfort and otherwise -
>
>Joe, I am not sure if I should hug you or smack you for starting this...???
I have gained 10 lbs already, just reading and thinking about all these
wonderfult delicacies!
>
>Some of my alltime favs:
>
>Lecsos Nokedli (Ero"s) - Peppers and Tomatoes with Nokedli (Hotter the better)
>Libamaj - Goose Liver
>Libazsiros Kenyer, eros paprikaval - Goose Lard on bread with hot peppers,
aka as one cardiac to go...
>Hortobanyi Palacsinta - Crepes, Hortobanyi style
>Gomba Porkolt - Mushroom stew?
>Pacalt - Tripe
>Ko"ro"zo"tt - Liptaeur Cheese
>Vadas - Sauerbratten (sp)
>
>Jo E'tva'gyat! Bon Apetit!
>Aniko
>
>

On Jul 25, 12:55pm, Aniko Dunford wrote:
> Subject: Re: Food - comfort and otherwise -
> >Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 13:47:26
> >To: "Amos J. Danube" > (by way of Aniko Dunford
> >)
> >From: Aniko Dunford >
> >Subject: Re: Food - comfort and otherwise -
> >
> >Joe, I am not sure if I should hug you or smack you for starting this...???
> I have gained 10 lbs already, just reading and thinking about all these
> wonderfult delicacies!
> >
> >Some of my alltime favs:
> >
> >Lecsos Nokedli (Ero"s) - Peppers and Tomatoes with Nokedli (Hotter the
better)
> >Libamaj - Goose Liver
> >Libazsiros Kenyer, eros paprikaval - Goose Lard on bread with hot peppers,
> aka as one cardiac to go...
> >Hortobanyi Palacsinta - Crepes, Hortobanyi style
> >Gomba Porkolt - Mushroom stew?
> >Pacalt - Tripe
> >Ko"ro"zo"tt - Liptaeur Cheese
> >Vadas - Sauerbratten (sp)
> >
> >Jo E'tva'gyat! Bon Apetit!
> >Aniko
> >
> >
>-- End of excerpt from Aniko Dunford


Aniko, is the gomba porkolt (mushroom stew) made with csiperke (medow
mushrooms) or tinornu (Boletus edulis, what the French call Cep)? :-)

Eva Balogh wrote:

>I don't think that this is a fair description of the kind of
>antisemitism we have been talking about in the last few weeks. We are
>talking about Mr. Nemenyi, who, among other things, believes that some of
>the medieval blood libels (meaning Jews killing Christians to use their
>blood for ritual purposes) described in various historical documents were
>not the figments of imagination but real.

Eva balogh admits that she is really preoccupied with Mr. Nemenyi. That is
a honor. ;-)
And about the blood libels,.. she is talking about Jews in general. That is
a nasty twist on her part. How about some, gentiles as well? I wrote about
the so called Bathory Erzsebet case also. So I am antichristian too ?
Eva's imagination is really flying. And the issue is not what I believe, but
what different courts of Europe believed. Plus mentioning some deranged
groups of fanatics, misinterpreting the scriptures, does not mean the whole
race of people. By the way, I mentioned this in the very articles, she is
trying to use against me!

>He also believes in Jewish international conspiracies, thus events, like
>the Bolshevik Revolution is connected, according to him, to a Jewish-
>American banker's loan to Japan in 1904. I would call this pathological
>antisemitism.

Does it mean also, that because I mentioned Mr. Rockefeller, than I am a
pathological antichristian as well? Is it my fault,  when there is an
inventory of the players of Bolshevism, then some historians spelling out
race or religion? Just now I received documents from "The National Archives
of the United States" about the American Expeditionary Forces in Siberia
in June 1919. The document is a string of letters sent by Captain Montgomery
Schuyler from Omsk on June 9th. to the American War Department. In this letter
word by word I read the followings: "These hopes were frustrated by the
gradual gains in power of the more irresponsible and socialistic elements of
the population guided by the Jews and other anti-russian races. A table made
in April 1918 by Robert Wilton, the correspondent of the London Times in
Russia, shows that at that time there were 384 "commissars" including 2
negroes,
13 Russians, 15 Chinamen, 22 Armenians and more than 300 Jews. Of the latter
number 264 had come to Russia from the United States since the downfall of
the Imperial Government. "
This document were declassified on the 27th of 1953. Anybody can obtain such
documents now. So I ask our historyan, Eva Balogh: Does such document constitut
e
the very label of naziism, and antisemitism? If it does, than I recommend her
to write a letter to the "General Services Administration - National Archives
an Record Service" and call them nazi. She can also mention, that because she
is a historyan, she knows that such documents are either forgeries by the
American Government, or they just don't not exist! :-)

See my stand is different. I research history, not like Eva Balogh, who copies
all the orthodox views of politically correct explanations of history.

NPA.

>At 08:06 PM 7/24/96 -0700, Jozsi Hill wrote, quoting me:

>>I'll admit it the day you admit that 1956 was a "szabadsa'gharc". ;-)
>>
>>         Oh, I admit. It was an "icipici szabadsagharc," and hardly anyone
>> calls it that.
>>
>>         Eva Balogh


>I don't know about you, but I'd very happy to get a buck from everyone
>that does!!
>>Jozsi

Joe Szalai adds:

>You won't get rich that way, Jozsi.  Nobody that I know calls 1956 a
>"szabadsagharc'.  Oh sure, there are some people on this list and s.c.m who
>call it that, but I don't know them.

        I am sure that people are sick and tired of this "szabadsagharc"
business, and even those who don't know a word of Hungarian are totally
familiar with the word by now. I promise this is my last word on the subject.

        Let me repeat: "szabadsagharc" doesn't mean "freedom fight," in the
traditional sense, in English. "Szabadsagharc" means "war of independence,"
and the word in Hungarian usage is pretty well reserved to the events of
1848-49. Calling 1848-49 a "szabadsagharc" makes eminent sense. Hungary was
not an independent country then but was part of the Habsburg Empire. The
Hungarians waged a war of independence against the Austrians and against the
Habsburg king. There was a large army under the supervision of a Hungarian
government which waged a protracted war against the Austrians. This was a
real war of independence.

        In 1956 the situation was different. Nominally, Hungary was an
independent country (of course, we know that the Hungarian government
couldn't move a finger without Soviet approval). But there was an
internationally accepted entity called Hungary which was represented in the
United Nations. It had its ambassadors. It had its own foreign minister.
Thus calling 1956 "szabadsagharc," in the Hungarian sense of the word is
really inappropriate. Hungary wanted to get out of a military alliance,
Hungary wanted the Russian troops whose presence was sanctioned by the
Warsaw Pact removed but strictly speaking we cannot speak of a war of
independence.

        The reason, especially in this country, for using the word
"szabadsagharc" in the sense of "freedom fight" is the influence of the
English usage on the Hungarian word. Such things can easily happen. A few
months ago someone on the FORUM said of me: "And even Eva Balogh used the
`anglicizmus' `low opinion,' which is clearly the mirror translation of the
English" and not correct Hungarian usage. And indeed, although I am very
careful when writing in Hungarian, mirror translations of this sort can
easily creep into one's speech or writing.

        In the English sense of the word "freedom fight," of course, the
Revolution of 1956 was a fight for freedom.

        Eva Balogh

At 08:03 PM 7/24/96 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:

>So, let's do a reality check.  Did you pay for the full cost of your high
>school and university education in Hungary, or did other Hungarians, those
>whose kids never had a chance to go to university, do without, so that some
>could benefit from an education?  And what about your university tuition in
>Canada?  Did you ever believe that you were paying the full cost of your
>education?  I hope not, 'cause you weren't.

        I don't call these "social programs." They are educational programs.
But let's have a little reality check! Bringing up my elementary and high
school education in Hungary is really beside the point. Free public
education is a fact of life practically everywhere in the world, including
Canada, the United States, and Hungary. You cannot call this a social
program. It is as old as public education itself.

        Now, when you come to my Hungarian university experience there had
been no tuition (not even an "icipici" tuition) in Hungary between 1948 and
1995. And again, I am not sure that you can call that a "social program."

        When it comes to Canadian universities, although nominally they are
independent, in fact they are heavily subsidized by the federal and
provincial governments. Tutition was low, unlike at some private
universities in the United States. But, at that time at least, it was easier
to get a scholarship, or receive free tuition at an American private
university than in a subsidized Canadian university. So, if you were poor
you had a harder time at a Canadian university with relatively lower tuition
fees since you still had to eat.

        But, in any case, I don't consider these social programs.


>>        Oh, my God. Surely, you don't take all this terribly seriously. The
>>communist parties of Eastern Europe were not the parties of the working
>>class! The old system of plan fulfillment died years and years ago and even
>>when it was alive it was a fraud.
>
>Why is it that you can tell me that, "the communist parties of Eastern
>Europe were not the parties of the working class", but when I tried to tell
>you that, in the thread about the Russian revolution, you say that I'm
confused?

        Because you brought up the question at an inappropriate time, at the
time we were talking about the "proletarian revolution." That revolution was
declared in the name of the proletariat regardless of its intellectual
origins. You just threw this in in order to muddy the waters concerning 1917.

        Eva Balogh

Mr. Stowewrite wrote:

>Sorry, Mr. Nemenyi -- "Because I said so" won't be adequate documentation
>in this instance. Barna has already begun trying all out to make his case
>on here. The type of hyperbolic bluffing you two are engaging in doesn't
>fool any of us. Either post the detailed, sourced documents to back up
>your claims or just admit that you don't have anything. Sam Stowe

Not quite so, Mr. Stowewrite. Mr Barna doesn't have to post any documenta-
tion, if he doesn't want to. I don't think it is important for me, if you
or some other people, who are acting like a mortal enemy towards my case
believe me, or not.
My friends have the proofs, and I trust them!      The case is pending,
and I am no fool to show all of  my card so I can prove anything. In due
time  as I promised, the whole case with every details can be available,
even for you too.

NPA.

PS: What is this  "Lyle's hair dresser." business? Sound interesting. ;-)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 25 Jul 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:
>         When it comes to Canadian universities, although nominally they are
> independent, in fact they are heavily subsidized by the federal and
> provincial governments. [...]
>         But, in any case, I don't consider these social programs.

 Well, the obvious question is: why not?

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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Mr. Kornai wrote:

>Following NPA's latest dark hints I actually took the trouble to call the
>Human Resources manager at Argonne. She wouldn't comment on the rumor that
>NPA's supervisor was laid off, or tell me who that person was. So unless NPA
>shares this piece of information, we will never have an authoritative second
>opinion on the extent of the causes that led to NPA's resignation. As to
>whether this resignation was coerced, the HR manager said "believe me, we
>don't have handcuffs at Argonne".

That is great! So I ask Mr. Kornai: Does he mean, that HR. refused to admit
any knowledge about the firing of my boss? How come, that Eva Balogh passed
info about it, way before it actually happened? Oh by the way, NPA.'s boss
was not laid off. He was fired after 23 years of clean service, just to stick
to the facts!

>I also asked her about what seems to many as excessive zeal, saying that in
>most places an incident like this would first lead to a verbal reprimand (or
>perhaps a written warning placed on his record) but not to immediate
>resignation. Her answer was that for the first incident this would be true at
>Argonne as well.  Needless to say, she couldn't and wouldn't tell me whether
>there were prior incidents -- readers must draw their own conclusions.

Thanks for the info. The last sentence is important!

>Joe Pannon's amusing theories about the Anti-Defamation League notwithstanding
>NPA could go ahead and sue the union for failure to represent him, or even sue
>Argonne. However, NPA's reluctance to provide any avenues for independent
>confirmation of his story for those who are a bit skeptical ("Joe Pannon has
>seen my proofs" just doesn't cut it, sorry) indicates that the story, even to
>the extent it's true, has some serious holes.

Look, Joe Pannon and Mr. Bihari are not the only people, having the proof of
my case. I care less, if you or anybody believes me, now. As you have seen ANL.
didn't want to show their cards, so why do you think I will? I simply don't
trust you or your ilk.

>In the US system of justice, which NPA managed to cast in a rather negative
>light on Hungarian Radio, there is such a thing as a "discovery phase". If I
>were a lawyer for the ADL the first thing I'd look at would be NPA's record at
>Argonne. As someone on s.c.m suggested the other day, NPA could have already
>had "some butter on his head" before this whole thing started, even if he was
>cited for good work.

Now look. The Hungarian Radio wanted my story. So I did not manage anything.
They have all the needed info regarding to this case. I have no idea, why you
talk about ADL.I did not mention them as players of this case. And about some
suggestions, as ""some butter on his head" before this whole thing started,
even if he was cited for good work." sounds veri libelous. Are you suggesting
that I was guilty of any crime or wrongdoing by that time? Are you suggesting
it Mr. Kornai? Speak up, or shut up!

>Fortunately, I'm no ADL lawyer and I don't have to subpoena Argonne's records
>on NPA, hear the testimony of his supervisor, or in any way try to get to the
>bottom of this.

Why the hell ADL. should run an investigations? Tell me?

>With this phonecall to Argonne I figure I've done my civic duty and satisfied
>myself that NPA has not been denied due process. So back to more substantive
>issues, like how Karl Marx was at the root of the 1848 revolution...

You only snooped around without any success. Be proud of it. And about Marx,
we can have some arguments. Why not?!

NPA.

Hi Bob:
At 01:15 PM 7/25/96 -0400, you wrote:

>Aniko, is the gomba porkolt (mushroom stew) made with csiperke (medow
>mushrooms) or tinornu (Boletus edulis, what the French call Cep)? :-)

I can't say, that I can picture the "Boletus edulis", (I'll look it up)  but
csiperke is superb for sure.  My alltime favourite mushroom is one, which my
great grandfather introduced to our family.  It grows in the Dunakanyar
region, deep in Chestnut forests.  It is very large, thus meaty and has a
distinct purplish tint.  The name "Varganya" comes to mind, but I won't dare
suggest that I am right on this one!.  That is the variety which my
Grandmother used to make Mushroom Porkolt from.   The flavour is incredible!!!

While on the subject of porkolt; I noticed a bit of a debate on this some
messages ago;  My families' explanation for the difference between Paprikas
and Porkolt is kinda cute; Porkolt is a dish, where the onions and meat are
slightly burned, (thus porkolt?) does not have tomatoes or green pepper
added, and the water addition is minimal.  The result is a slightly darker
sauce and more robust flavour.  Sour cream is always added.  Paprikas enjoys
the addition of tomatoes and peppers with a more generous volume of water.
Colour is more on the reddish side; flavour slightly less robust.  Sour
cream is always added.  Just one more opionion!

Regards,
Aniko

Dear Group;

At 11:33 AM 7/25/96 -0400, you wrote:
>On Jul 25, 10:31am, Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq wrote:
>> Subject: Re: Food - comfort and otherwise -
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>> On Thu, 25 Jul 1996, Amos J. Danube wrote:
>> >        How about adding zoldborsoleves (sweat pea soup) to the grow-
>>
>>  That with liver dumplings is a real winner :-)!
>
>      Right you are, Zoli. Just shows you how long it has been, I have
>      almost forgotten about it.
>                                   Amos
>
>
Oh goodie!  This thread is still going.  Heellllp!  I need more recipes for
what to do with sausages--soon!

At the WRTC-96, at the last social (hosted by the Slovenians, who were not
familiar with this area), I helped out by buying out half the stock of
Polaner Deli (they sell Polish, Hungarian and Croatian sausages, salamis and
cold cuts made both in Chicago (by the East European communities there) and
in East Europe and bringing it to the social (well, there were nearly 400
people...)

My darling husband who loves sausages too, decided to hold a "few pounds in
reserve"--and didn't tell me until after the event.  I found the sausages
when unpacking at home.  He forgot that my cousin had also brought me
sausages from the Hungarian shop in Toledo--and that we still had several
pounds of those in the freezer, along with the meats from shopping just
before we took a vacation and then worked on WRTC.  Needless to say, I am
overwhelmed by sausage which should probably all be eaten within the next
week or so...  (Hmmm, I wonder if this will be the title of the next Sue
Grafton mystery: _Suicide by Sausage_)

I need some more ideas besides several varieties of goulash, pea soup, beans
(or bean soup) and sausage (combining with baked beans--what an insult to
the sausages), and (worse) sausage and pasta-and-cheese (that's a polite
description of what it could be called...)  We're talking mostly varieties
of smoked kolbas.

Regarding other comfort food: how about chicken noodle soup made with
saffron, and poppy-seed rolls or kifli.

Considering the chemical properties of saffron and poppy seeds (in the
midwest and California we've literally had to warn people not to take drug
tests after consuming any significant quantity of one or the other because
of what happened when testing started getting very sophisticated...It made
for a very humorous article once in the "Minneapolis Star and Tribune"), I
think these _really_ qualify as "comfort foods."  Now you know how I've
sometimes survived the stress of living in semi-sane Silicon Valley.--I
often wonder if my late grandmother perfected these items to survive living
with my overly political active grandfather, or was it when my more creative
cousins and I began to get together on various antics of what she thought
was an incredible variety... I seem to remember several incidents in
particular that were followed by large quantities of chicken soup and poppy
seed rolls, hmmm. :-)

However, my personal choice for the best all-time comfort food, is one full
ounce of 15 year old palinka--or "holy water" as my father nicknamed
it--because in less than two seconds you thought you'd burned up from head
to toe and gone to heaven...  Never had a hang-over from that stuff, either.
Now does anyone sell something that wonderful anywhere???

The Slovenian plum "aquavit" I tried at the WRTC isn't nearly as smoothe or
tasty, and doesn't have quite the same effect.  No hangover with that
either, but just not anywhere near as good.

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA












N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

NPA:

>That is great! So I ask Mr. Kornai: Does he mean, that HR. refused to admit
>any knowledge about the firing of my boss? How come, that Eva Balogh passed
>info about it, way before it actually happened?

        I must be clairvoyant!(;)) What is this nonsense I have been hearing
at times from Mr. Nemenyi concerning his boss. Let me make myself clear: I
asked a fellow Hungarian who works at Argonne to find out for me what
happened. I was told that not just Nemenyi was fired but also his boss who
wasn't vigilant enough concerning his activities. I passed that information
on to those who were "most suspect" by Mr. Nemenyi and his supporters--four
people all told.

        My informant at Argonne didn't keep my request to himself (and I
didn't ask him either, by the way) and he must have informed Mr. Nemenyi
about my inquiry. Mr. Nemenyi, upon hearing this, announced that his boss
wasn't fired and my "mole," as he called my informant, misled me. A week or
so later, however, I was accused of actually causing his boss's loss of
job!! Hard to imagine how my inquiry to an employee (who doesn't even work
in the same department of the organization) can possibly cause the firing of
Mr. Nemenyi's boss. These are the kinds of announcements on Mr. Nemenyi's
part which makes me even more suspicious of this whole story.

        Eva Balogh

At 10:56 AM 7/25/96 -0700, you wrote:
>>At 08:06 PM 7/24/96 -0700, Jozsi Hill wrote, quoting me:
>
>>>I'll admit it the day you admit that 1956 was a "szabadsa'gharc". ;-)
>>>
>>>         Oh, I admit. It was an "icipici szabadsagharc," and hardly anyone
>>> calls it that.
>>>
>>>         Eva Balogh
>
>
>>I don't know about you, but I'd very happy to get a buck from everyone
>>that does!!
>>>Jozsi
>
>Joe Szalai adds:
>
>>You won't get rich that way, Jozsi.  Nobody that I know calls 1956 a
>>"szabadsagharc'.  Oh sure, there are some people on this list and s.c.m who
>>call it that, but I don't know them.

Eva Says:
>
>        I am sure that people are sick and tired of this "szabadsagharc"
>business, and even those who don't know a word of Hungarian are totally
>familiar with the word by now. I promise this is my last word on the subject.

<Snipped rest>
>
Hi Eva et al, involved in this debate.  While in Hungary, I had a little
fun.  I posed the following question to an fairly wide range of people, in
six different areas of Hungary. In addition, in three different areas of
Northern Italy in the ValSessia region, I asked the same question:

"Please define the '56 events to me, in one word".

I have to add that most people I asked took me for a lunatic (and likely
righfully so)  but they all amused me by giving answers.   For all of your
information, not even *one*  person defined it as "Szabadsagharc".  The word
"Forradalom" was used in every single instance.  It is not my intent to
start a debate on this, nor do I wish to respond to any in depth inquiries
on this in the future.  Simple stated, I just had some fun and wanted to
satisfy my own curiosity if not memory on the topic.  For what it's worth, I
thought you'd enjoy the sharing.

Regards,
Aniko

>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 13:47:45
>To: Hugh Agnew > (by way of Aniko Dunford
>)
>From: Aniko Dunford >
>Subject: Re: Pacsni
>
>At 11:29 AM 7/25/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>Dear fellow-listmembers,
>>
><snip>>
>>
>>Tripe's a trip!
>You have my vote on this Hugh!  And, if you ever want to attempt at making
it, it's really quite alot easier in NA, since the tripe is exceptionally
cleaned.  Let me know, if you need the know how!
>
>Best regards,
>Aniko
>>
>

>On Jul 25, 10:31am, Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq wrote:
> Subject: Re: Food - comfort and otherwise -
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> On Thu, 25 Jul 1996, Amos J. Danube wrote:
>        How about adding zoldborsoleves (sweat pea soup) to the grow-

>  That with liver dumplings is a real winner :-)!
>
>      Right you are, Zoli. Just shows you how long it has been, I have
>      almost forgotten about it.
>                                   Amos
>
Oh boy Amos!  I forgot about this one also!  Right you are Zoli!  How about
adding to this, the rest of dinner?   "To"lto"tt csirke" (stuffed chicken -
for those non-Hungarians, the stuffing is even great the next day cold, on
bread!!! It is made with soaked dry bread (in milk), chicken liver, onions,
garlic,  mushrooms and tons of parsley, some marjoram - simply to die for!)
served with petrezselymes burgonya (parsley potatoes) and cucumber salad,
tomato salad, lettuce salad???  Finishing with meggyes piskota (sour cherry
torte) or meggyes re'tes? (sour cherry strudel).  Goodness, I really think
it's time to go back!

Aniko

>

How about lecso?  I'm told there are different variations.  When people
took me to restaurants in BP, they kept steering me to the "English"
dishes.  And I kept shouting, "Bring me lecso!"  They said, "But that is a
poor person's dish."  I said, "Then I qualify."  They could not believe
any of this, but I got my lecso.

Do only poor people eat this?  And what are the variation possibilities?

Salami and lard for breakfast?

Yes, I know it's typically Hungarian.  I read a bio once of the Korda
brothers (the movie producers) where one or more of them would slice some
salami for breakfast.  None of them died happy.  I know the melancholic
and sometimes even suicidal tendencies of Hungarians has been ascribed to
history, temperament, etc.  But could it be, at least partly, that there
was just a lot of gunk in their arteries?  No one can be happy when
there's gunk in their arteries.

I think it's worth investigating.  Wouldn't it be interesting if the
"national temperament" of Hungary took a mood-turn upwards simply because
people started eating healthy.  (I know: Californians eat healthy and
they're as screwed up as anyone.  Still, I'd love to see this tried.)

Burian

Archive-name: hungarian/pointer
Soc-culture-magyar-archive-name: pointer
Bit-listserv-hungary-archive-name: pointer
Version: 0.90 (beta)
Posting-Frequency: monthly
Last-modified: 1995/11/21
URL: http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/hungarian-faq-pointer

 This document summarizes network-related resources of Hungarian
interest, which are accessible via email. Some of the most readily
available sources of information can be found in the archives of
periodical information postings to Usenet; these documents are commonly
known as FAQs (from Frequently Asked/Answered Questions). Knowing the
name of the file you can retrieve it by sending email to
 with the command "send
usenet/news.answers/<ARCHIVE-NAME>" in the message (without the quotes,
and with substituting the actual name for <ARCHIVE-NAME> in the pattern
shown above) - for example, to get the document described below, use

 send usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq

 To learn more about the RTFM server just send the command "help" to it
- it will provide step-by-step intstructions on how to use the
archives, on retrieving indexes and so on.

 "Hungarian electronic resources FAQ" is a comprehensive collection
dealing with email, FTP, WWW and other Internet tools; its archive name
is 'hungarian-faq' (and the mail-server command to get it is shown in
the example above).
 If you only have direct access to email then, in order to use the
other tools, you'll need the methods described in "Accessing The
Internet By E-Mail" (Archive-name:
internet-services/access-via-email).
 To get a general introduction to Usenet (with some guides to Internet
as well - and explanation of how they are different, too) see "Welcome
to news.newusers.questions!" (Archive-name: news-newusers-intro).
 For a guide to finding someone's e-mail addresses, see the "FAQ: How
to find people's E-mail addresses" (Archive-name: finding-addresses).
Do notice that it's usually inappropriate to send such blanket requests
to mailing lists; the search tools available give much better chance to
locate addresses sought than posted queries in any case!
 An overview of commercial on-line services in Hungary is available by
John Horvath >
(Archive-name: hungarian/comm-providers).

 The hungarian-faq describes several email lists related to Hungary;
only a brief summary is shown here. Please keep in mind that
subscription requests (and other administrative communications) should
be directed to the server address, NOT to the lists themselves.

Server: 
 List:  (the HUNGARY LISTSERV list)

Server: 
 List: HOL (Hungary Online)

Server: 
 List: hungary-report

Server: 
 Lists: OMRI-L (Open Media Research Institute Daily Digest)
        MIDEUR-L (Middle European discussion list)

Server: 
 List: cet-online (Central Europe Today On-Line; email )

Server: 
 List: CERRO-L (Central European Regional Research Organization)

Server: email to  (Hollosi Information Exchange)
 Lists: HIX is a collection of several separate lists, including
  - MOZAIK, a collection of news items in English
  - various discussion forums in Hungarian language
  - SCM and HUNGROUPS, which are email-accessible archives of the Usenet
    newsgroup soc.culture.magyar and the hun.* national hierarchy,
    respectively; to get a directory listing of these archives (as well
    as that of other HIX lists), send email to  with
    "arch" in the 'Subject:' line. Note that the SENDDOC utility takes
    its parameter from the 'Subject:' of the message (unlike many other
    servers, like the ones described previously, which use the body)!

 Note that this document is available on the
 <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>; homepage for the "Hungarian
electronic resources FAQ" at the HIX WWW-server.
 The latter also provides access for the full FAQ via
 'finger ', and for this brief pointer you are
reading via 'finger ' (notice that you
will likely need to redirect the output to a pager or a file in order
to read it). The Usenet archive name for this document is
 hungarian/pointer .

--
 Zoli , keeper of <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>;
 <'finger '>
 NOTE: spamsters and bulk emailers see 'X-Policy*:' in the
header for the charges to be imposed for net abuse!

Dear Eva and group;
At 02:38 PM 7/24/96 -0700, you wrote:

>At 11:44 AM 7/24/96 -0600, Celia wrote:
>
>>We have an awful lot of fierce rancor and space and time
>>devoted to calling people "anti-semitic" and arguing about whether the
>>labelling is justified or not.
>>
>>How about a definition upon which everyone can agree?  Right now, it seems
>>to a casual reader that virtually any criticism of Israel, or of a person's
>>behavior or expressions who happens to be Jewish is grounds for some small
>>group or other to scream "'anti-semitic'--get rid of him/her from this
>>group!" When is it ok to post valid criticism, and at what point does it
>>become "anti-semitic?"
>
>        I don't think that this is a fair description of the kind of
>antisemitism we have been talking about in the last few weeks. We are
>talking about Mr. Nemenyi, who, among other things, believes that some of
>the medieval blood libels (meaning Jews killing Christians to use their
>blood for ritual purposes) described in various historical documents were
>not the figments of imagination but real. He also believes in Jewish
>international conspiracies, thus events, like the Bolshevik Revolution is
>connected, according to him, to a Jewish-American banker's loan to Japan in
>1904. I would call this pathological antisemitism.
>
>        This is not criticism of Israel, which can be criticized plenty,  or
>some critical remarks about some no-good person who happens to be
>Jewish--this is a bit more serious than that. So, let's not trivialize the
>matter.
>
>        Eva Balogh
>
>
First, I appreciate the thoughtful response.  I understand your concern for
Mr. Nemenyi's comments, but I was indeed referring to not only the situation
surrounding Mr. Nemenyi, but others also I've seen in the past few months.

To comment on both your's and Mr. Nemenyi's views however,if it is ok to
venture another individual opinion into this discussion:

We've always had a few people in every religion at every time in human
history who've found reason to think that blood offerings are somehow valid.
This is made worse by the fact that when political powers were trying to get
rid of political or social opponents or "misfits," this was also a favorite
accusation against opponents--along with devil worship.--Worse,
"confessions" could, and were, brutally extracted under torture to confirm
_both_ real and imaginary events.    It is very hard to sort out the
realities of almost any day and age--even now, about today.  People
establish trials of one another and people write the accounts and
histories--and people are not objective, compassionate angels.

I think one of the most interesting illustrations of this that I've
encountered recently is a very good historical novel (with some interesting
"real history" notes about how the novel came to be written and what really
happened and didn't) called _The Oracle Glass_ by Judith Merkle Riley, 1994
Fawcett Columbine, New York.  The novel is about a real historical scandal
that took place during the reign of Louis XIV in 17th century CE, Paris,
called "L'Affaire des Poisons."

Another book that provides even more food for thought and discussion and has
a much stronger relationship to this thread is: _Conspiracies, Cover-ups and
Crimes_ by Jonathan Vankin, 1992, Paragon House, New York.

The author started out researching and writing the book with the idea of
largely debunking some of the most popular conspiracy theories.  He also
wanted to understand how intelligent,well-educated people could believe and
support these things--where did reality end and fiction begin and how did it
all become confused?  What he learned about the whole subject caused him to
end up at war with himself about a few things.  He also ended up at times
falling into some of the pits he was trying to more objectively record and
analyze.  The East Europeans, particularly Hungarians, suffered from a
collosal error on his part at one point when he did this.--He doesn't have a
very good opinion of _any_ of us...

Nevertheless, much of his research and presentation is good (35 pages of
footnotes and bibliography--guaranteed to aggravate vision problems and
headaches), and he makes some very interesting general observations.  At
several points in his book he reminds the reader that man is a social
creature, and that the basic meaning of conspiracy is a group of people
getting together in common interest and agreement to act upon that common
interest and agreement.  He points out that conspiracies of all sorts do
exist everywhere and we generally think nothing of them.  It's how human
society always functions.  Conspiracies are also, however, built upon fear,
mistrust--usually rooted in something of the conspirator's own experience,
or the feeling that by exclusiveness it might be easier to get something
done--such as founding a particular business, or business association.

Ok considering those views, and remembering the survival instincts of
people, is it not logical that persecuted minorities might to survive
organize themselves to penetrate strategic institutions of nations in which
they are a minority to gain influence to protect themselves?  Certainly I
know a lot of Hungarians and East Europeans who felt that the U.S. had a lot
to do with what happened to their nations after 1945, weren't exactly
thrilled with what they perceived as the "U.S. stupidity," and were
determined to prevent events from repeating, or finding a way to undo the
situations.

Do you know how many Hungarians--regardless of religion--became U.S.
citizens, deliberately chose certain fields of studies and deliberately
entered the military or federal civil service to rise in the State
Department and Defense Department to have a "common voice" to remind the
U.S. of its own best ideals and apply them to East Central Europe a bit
better?  Do you know how many of these people knew each other, and
communicated with one another--regularly?  Why then would we expect the
Jewish people to be any different?  And if not all Hungarian actions done by
Hungarians in one or another groups have been "good," or seem unduly
selfish, why would we not expect to see that anything different among the
equally human Jewish people?

I wonder if in this discussion thread I'm also seeing something else that
Mr. Vankin described in his book, the very last paragraph in chapter 15, the
chapter entitled: "Just a Group of Concerned Citizens."  Here's his
paragraph  for your consideration:

        "Contemporary American conspiracy theorists tend to downplay the
secret society angle.  European conspiracy theorists pay secret societies
much more attention.  But the archetype is there.  The CIA and the
Trilateralists both fit the model.  They have been secret societies forever,
it seems, and they still exist today.  Maybe they are nothing but
coincidentally similar groups that sprout from time to time in response to
the pressures of each particular historical time and place.  Or perhaps the
"the technology of power" has been "occult" since early civilization, when
humans first began to control nature and those most important creatures of
nature--other humans."

I think we make both too much and too little of real--and unreal--
situations, and have a hard time sorting out real from unreal.  Myself, I
like Mr. Vankin's very last line in his book--it greatly appeals to my own
undoubtedly perverse view and sense of humor about the human race:

        "To understand conspiracy theorists, I now believe (please remember
this is Mr. Vankin's view--I only _like_ it, mostly for its sardonic
humor...), is to first understand that civilization is a conspiracy against
reality."

He also has some very droll quotes--all carefully documented that introduce
each chapter.  My favorite two are from his chapters entitled: "Kinder,
Gentler Death Squads," and "Just a Group of Concerned Citizens."

The first is from "Instructions for Assasins in a CIA Guerrilla Warfare
Manual,": "These men should be equipped with weapons and should march
slightly behind the innocent and gullible participants."

The second is from "Henry Kissinger, singing the praises of his colleagues
on the Council on Foreign Relations:" "In a subtle and civilized way they
create an environment in which ideas are absorbed almost by osmosis and in
which one draws the strength which comes from being with a group of
individuals who form a community in the best sense."

May I make just a suggestion that anyone who wishes to continue any
discussion in this group regarding conspiracy theories--and the questions of
their realities--read Jonathan Vankin's book and two others that relate to
some aspects of what he researched?  The two other books are (and they are
widely used in the Journalism/Mass Communications Departments of a number of
colleges--it was a college bookstore at which I obtained them...):
_Manufacturing Consent_, by Edward S. Herman and Noam Chomsky, 1988,
Pantheon Books, New York and; _Unreliable Sources: a Guide to Detecting Bias
in News Media_, by Martin A. Lee and Norman Solomon, 1990, 1991, Carol
Publishing Group, New York.

Although it may be hard to do, (Vankin's book will probably have most people
in stitches laughing at times--although it will be at different parts for
different people), try to read them objectively, and then come back to the
discussion group and tell us what you thought.  And then consider some of
the current discussions within the framework of what you accepted or
dismissed from these materials? Let's see if we can determine reality and
unreality any better than anyone else these days, hmmm?  That ought to keep
us busy for the rest of our lives, eh? ;-)

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA


N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Hi Cecilia:

At 11:59 AM 7/25/96 -0600, you wrote:
>Dear Group;

>I need some more ideas besides several varieties of goulash, pea soup, beans
>(or bean soup) and sausage (combining with baked beans--what an insult to
>the sausages), and (worse) sausage and pasta-and-cheese (that's a polite
>description of what it could be called...)  We're talking mostly varieties
>of smoked kolbas.
>
>Regarding other comfort food: how about chicken noodle soup made with
>saffron, and poppy-seed rolls or kifli.

You might try this one:

"Rakott Krumpli"  - Layered Potatoes
Please note that there are probably as many variations of this, as are
homes.  This one is my Grandmothers:

Ingredients:  Sliced Potatoes (Scallop potatoe style)
                   Sliced Kolbasz (Sausages smoked is best)
                   Sliced cooked eggs
                   Sliced onions (optional but recommended)
                   Lots of sour cream
                   Shredded Cheese (Monteray or the like - a Canadianized
version and                      is only optional - Hungarians never use this)

Quantities you ask, Cecilia?  Well, enough of this, and that, a handful of
this and that, and more of such and so.  (Mami's recipies are just like
that, except for of course a pinch of that).

Take a lasagna style pan.  Grease with butter (goosefat best - good luck!)
Place a generous layer of potatoes, followed by generous layers of each of
above.  (I prefer the onions on top of potatoes, my grandmother does it as
per above, save the cheese).  Be sure not to be stingy with the sour cream
though!  Plastering seems to be the name of the game.  Repeat layers at
least twice, ending with sour cream, or cheese, which ever you prefer.  (My
family lives for cheese....thus the variance).

Mami, would now pour some goosefat over all this, prior to baking 'till
crisp and brown.  I have skipped such practices and discovered that save the
calories and cholesterol, the flavour is as good.  (Not to mention the fact
that goosefat is rather hard to come by?)

Enjoy!  It's good!  We generally eat this, with "kovaszos uborka" cukes in
brine?  Mami claims that it cuts the fat and the cholesterol.  BTW - it
freezes really well too!  Also, on occassion I have added sliced cauliflower
to the above.  It was nice for a change.  I guess that imagination might be
the other name of the game?

I love your concept of saffron in chicken soup.  But the palinka stuff?
Well????  Not my fav!..however am always open to try...again???!!!

Regards,
Aniko

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On Thu, 25 Jul 1996, Burian wrote:
> Do only poor people eat this?
 Of course not; but we hold this legend to keep the uptight stuffy types
away so we can have more :-)!

> And what are the variation possibilities?
 They are endless, although mostly just minor variations in amount of
vegetables in the mix, seasoning, kinds of sausages and other meat thrown
in etc.

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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On Thu, 25 Jul 1996, Aniko Dunford wrote:
> adding to this, the rest of dinner?   "To"lto"tt csirke" (stuffed chicken -
> for those non-Hungarians, the stuffing is even great the next day cold, on
> bread!!! It is made with soaked dry bread (in milk), chicken liver, onions,
> garlic,  mushrooms and tons of parsley, some marjoram - simply to die for!)
> served with petrezselymes burgonya (parsley potatoes) and cucumber salad,
> tomato salad, lettuce salad???  Finishing with meggyes piskota (sour cherry
> torte) or meggyes re'tes? (sour cherry strudel).

 This is my favorite course too, except that I always felt parsley
potatoes are lowly Germanish kinda food-substitues ;-) - real Hungarians
should go for su2ltkrumpli, either the shoestring type or what I like
most: the thin sliced variety (like the fake chips sold on this side of
the pond, but for real and made overdone crunchy)...

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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At 01:05 PM 7/25/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Salami and lard for breakfast?

Am afraid you're missing a few factors here, Burian!  Hot bread, tomatoes,
yellow peppers and/or onions.  Radishes if in season.  Would be a more
typical version of some families' breakfast.  Lard?  I have not seen much of
that lately, unless it is of the duck/goose type.  Tunaliver, liver pates,
yes!  Bacon slab (the smoked and raw kind, plastered with paprika is still
high on the desirables).
>
>Yes, I know it's typically Hungarian.  I read a bio once of the Korda
>brothers (the movie producers) where one or more of them would slice some
>salami for breakfast.  None of them died happy.  I know the melancholic
>and sometimes even suicidal tendencies of Hungarians has been ascribed to
>history, temperament, etc.  But could it be, at least partly, that there
>was just a lot of gunk in their arteries?  No one can be happy when
>there's gunk in their arteries.

I think that while you are raising some good points, you are also
oversimplifying.  Also you are omitting some major factors.  For instance, I
would love to see a study done on the effects of ingesting high acidic foods
in conjunction with high cholesterol foods.  Genetics and lifestyle I am
sure has alot of influence as well.  For example;  my grandfather lived on
lard, raw bacon and limited fibre (at least as we know it), drank way too
much, smoked at least three packs of Munkas cigarettes a day, and lived to
ripe old age of 94.  He also worked physically hard all his life, and
actually died with a muscle structure that would put many 20 year olds to
shame today.  His problem was of the liver kind...if you get my drift.

Another example;  I have a diabetic friend.  In Canada, this friend has to
spend his life, by watching his diet impecably.  While in Hungary, he is
able to eat all.  I mean all, while cutting the dose of his medication back
to .25mg diabeta every three days, vs one .50 gm of diabeta per day in
Canada.  Stress level same, sugar ingestion higher than in Canada, alcohol
consumption of course higher than in Canada.  Energy level?  At least three
times the norm.  To me at least, this is an amazing discovery.

Consider the fact that the sugars, flours, salts etc are absolutely in their
'ideal' form. Nothing is refined, nor is over refined (at least not yet, but
coming fast).  Minimal amounts of fast foods are consumed, and certainly no
pre-cooked and canned stuff.  In fact, for example, the flour in Hungary
resembles durum wheat flour, used here, mostly for making pasta.  One can
certainly carry this over to Italy, where the same principals apply.  With
one major difference.  In Hungary, high calories are consumed prior to five
pm, with little or none after that.  In Italy, the same applies except that
dinner starts at minimum 20:00 hour each night in addition to high
calories/cholesterol in the morning and at lunch.  Something to think about.

I am not so easily resigned to your simplified statement, but must agree
that investigating is worthy.  As for moods, well,  I can at least attest to
the fact that I consumed more hot peppers and high cholesterol foods in a
few weeks in Hungary/Italy, than ever would I dream of doing so in Canada in
six months.  Nerves?  Not bad at all!  This will surprise you somewhat I am
sure but the most utitlized comments of my businees associates and my
friends is:  "you always look like a million bucks when you come back from
Europe... why in h... do ever bother coming back?"  Food for thought I am
sure, but for certain....I do not live well, while there!  I eat all, and
drink all the forbidden stuff, and usually end up dropping several pounds...
Go Figure!  In closing, I reiterate.... sure would love to see some
studies.......
>
Regards,
Aniko

>I think it's worth investigating.  Wouldn't it be interesting if the
>"national temperament" of Hungary took a mood-turn upwards simply because
>people started eating healthy.  (I know: Californians eat healthy and
>they're as screwed up as anyone.  Still, I'd love to see this tried.)
>
>Burian
>
>

Burian wrote:

> Salami and lard for breakfast?
>
> Yes, I know it's typically Hungarian.  I read a bio once of the Korda
> brothers (the movie producers) where one or more of them would slice some
> salami for breakfast.  None of them died happy.  I know the melancholic
> and sometimes even suicidal tendencies of Hungarians has been ascribed to
> history, temperament, etc.  But could it be, at least partly, that there
> was just a lot of gunk in their arteries?  No one can be happy when
> there's gunk in their arteries.

Ah, but then Real Hungarians (TM) take preventitive measures in the form
of a large shot of fruit brandy first thing in the morning, on an empty
stomach, to prepare it for the looming fat intake.  Besides, not all fatty
stuff comes from salami.  My parents' favourite breakfast is chopped
salted/smoked fatback well sweated in a pan and a couple of eggs fried
in the resulting pool of fat.  The unspoken derision was withering when
I first mentioned breakfast cereals to them.

George Antony

At 10:56 AM 7/25/96 -0700, Eva Balogh wrote:

>        I don't call these "social programs." They are educational programs.

I don't wish to cause you any undue confusion but no social programme is
called "social programme".

>But let's have a little reality check! Bringing up my elementary and high
>school education in Hungary is really beside the point. Free public
>education is a fact of life practically everywhere in the world, including
>Canada, the United States, and Hungary. You cannot call this a social
>program. It is as old as public education itself.

Public education is not free.  It is paid for by the same people who pay for
every other aspect of government.

>        Now, when you come to my Hungarian university experience there had
>been no tuition (not even an "icipici" tuition) in Hungary between 1948 and
>1995. And again, I am not sure that you can call that a "social program."

I see.  If you benefit from something it's not a social programme.  It only
becomes that when someone else benefits form it.  Very clever.

A lot of things in Hungary were "free" between 1948 and 1989.  And as you
keep reminding us, it's payback time.  I don't suppose you're willing to
give the Hungarian government a cheque to pay for the "freebies" you
received between 1948 and 1956?  It might help their debt problem, you know.
And with less debt, Hungary might be on the road to recovery sooner.  And
that's what you want, isn't it?  Do you feel any sense of responsibility on
this issue?

>        When it comes to Canadian universities, although nominally they are
>independent, in fact they are heavily subsidized by the federal and
>provincial governments. Tutition was low, unlike at some private
>universities in the United States.

The federal and provincial governments in Canada are not cash cows.  Once
again, it's the taxpayer who helped subsidize your education in Canada.  But
not just any taxpayer.  The well-to-do in Canada don't pay their full taxes
because they know how to take advantage of tax loopholes.  Unfortunately,
the working poor don't know how to take advantage of tax loopholes and end
up paying their full tax.  In effect they are subsidizing the university
education of the elite.

Joe Szalai

Cecilia Fabos-Becker wrote:

> However, my personal choice for the best all-time comfort food, is one full
> ounce of 15 year old palinka--or "holy water" as my father nicknamed
> it--because in less than two seconds you thought you'd burned up from head
> to toe and gone to heaven...  Never had a hang-over from that stuff, either.
> Now does anyone sell something that wonderful anywhere???

What must come close in commercial stuff is the 8-year-old plum and apricot
brandies produced under the strict supervision of the Budapest Orthodox
Rabbinate.  Both are excellent and smooth, I cearly remember the plum
having a straw colour, attesting to maturation, some of it possibly in a
barrel. I would be very surprised if it were not available in New York, the
very least.

It is a very satisfying drink to all who do not feel the urge to cross
themselves at the sight of Hebrew writing on the label.

> The Slovenian plum "aquavit" I tried at the WRTC isn't nearly as smoothe or
> tasty, and doesn't have quite the same effect.  No hangover with that
> either, but just not anywhere near as good.

Any fruit brandy of any of the neighbouring countries is potentially as
good, as long as it is distilled properly (generously pouring out the
first bit coming off the cooler containing the nastier compounds), and
given time to mature.

Maturation, even in a bottle, can change a lowly rocket fuel into a velvety
treat.  My grandfather used to make marc brandy from the leftovers of
wine making, with water and sugar added.  Now, that is renowned as the
roughest type of fruit brandy there is, but a few bottles made before
WWII and forgotten buried in sand in the cellar turned into the smoothest,
golden-coloured nectar in 8 years or thereabouts, according to familiry lore.

George Antony

Dear Joe;

At 07:06 PM 7/25/96 -0400, you wrote:
>At 10:56 AM 7/25/96 -0700, Eva Balogh wrote:
>
>>        I don't call these "social programs." They are educational programs.
>
>I don't wish to cause you any undue confusion but no social programme is
>called "social programme".
>
>>But let's have a little reality check! Bringing up my elementary and high
>>school education in Hungary is really beside the point. Free public
>>education is a fact of life practically everywhere in the world, including
>>Canada, the United States, and Hungary. You cannot call this a social
>>program. It is as old as public education itself.
>
>Public education is not free.  It is paid for by the same people who pay for
>every other aspect of government.
>
>>        Now, when you come to my Hungarian university experience there had
>>been no tuition (not even an "icipici" tuition) in Hungary between 1948 and
>>1995. And again, I am not sure that you can call that a "social program."
>
>I see.  If you benefit from something it's not a social programme.  It only
>becomes that when someone else benefits form it.  Very clever.
>
>A lot of things in Hungary were "free" between 1948 and 1989.  And as you
>keep reminding us, it's payback time.  I don't suppose you're willing to
>give the Hungarian government a cheque to pay for the "freebies" you
>received between 1948 and 1956?  It might help their debt problem, you know.
>And with less debt, Hungary might be on the road to recovery sooner.  And
>that's what you want, isn't it?  Do you feel any sense of responsibility on
>this issue?
>
>>        When it comes to Canadian universities, although nominally they are
>>independent, in fact they are heavily subsidized by the federal and
>>provincial governments. Tutition was low, unlike at some private
>>universities in the United States.
>
>The federal and provincial governments in Canada are not cash cows.  Once
>again, it's the taxpayer who helped subsidize your education in Canada.  But
>not just any taxpayer.  The well-to-do in Canada don't pay their full taxes
>because they know how to take advantage of tax loopholes.  Unfortunately,
>the working poor don't know how to take advantage of tax loopholes and end
>up paying their full tax.  In effect they are subsidizing the university
>education of the elite.
>
>Joe Szalai
>
>

I just thought I'd tell you that generally this is a very good answer.  You
might make a rational, realist yet.  Now you know the attitudes from both
the extreme left and extreme right that have been regularly threatening my
sanity here in the U.S.--and even in Hungary on occasion.  Everything is
always someone else's fault: someone else's needless subsidy, social
program, etc., etc.  They all say: "My" non-social program(s) usually called
"real needs" should be excluded from reforms, budgetary constraints,
questions, etc..  All groups say the same thing, none wants to be really
accountable, and the social problems and deficits just keep growing.  Yes,
the rich do have more advantages and cause more of the problems because
there is less accountability by them, but the bottom has been getting its
hits in, also, and the middle is also not without culpabililty. No one is
looking at the good of people in general, or the nation, or the world as
whole. Everyone wants to exclude someone and take more for themselves.
Blyech!  What a revolting situation--literally. (pun intended)

You're welcome to come visit me in my near-hermitage in the mountains when
it gets finished, if you like. I figure about the time I finally get it
finished, you'll be ready for a visit, right?   I'll make sure we have some
15 year old palinka stashed away somewhere--and I'm sure my husband will
make sure there are more than enough sausages to go with it. ;-)

By the way, I intend to put in a huge garden (combination indoor and
outdoor) and try out some of the ideas I got when I visited Epcot center.
Since this home is going to be at the 4,000' (1300m) level of the
Sierras--and has to be on a flat near a couple of gentle slopes so my
husband's radio antennas have the best location, I'll need to haul in extra
soil and be scrupulous about soil and water conservation.  I don't think
3-4" of eroded granite are likely to do very well by themselves... ;-)

Cecilia
San Jose, CA


N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Dear Group:

Several months ago, Martha began a thread on Hungarian Humour.  This thread
revolved into discussion on reading material regarding Hungary.  One, Mr.
Szaszvari strongly recommended a book entitled "Under the Frog's Arse", but
could not recall the author.  Our very own Sam, came through with the author
being Tibor Fischer, and the book was further recommended by our very own Joe.

Now many would likely have passed over this, but not this fool here.  Off I
went to the bookstore and asked the clerk for the book entitled "Under the
Frog's Arse, written by Tibor Fischer.  She looked at me kinda strange,
turned to her computer and immediately called her supervisor over.  At this
point, the two of them were looking at me kinda strange and smirkingly
replied;  "Sorry, we don't have it in stock, but it appears to be listed.
We'd be happy to order it in for you".  And the smirking continued, along
with the strange looks.

Several weeks later, the bookstore phoned to advise me that my requested
order is in.  Of course, upon picking it up as luck would have it, the same
clerk was there along with the same supervisor.  They handed me the book (in
a bag) which I paid for in kind.  Their strange looks and smirks, which were
followed by loud laughter upon my exit... still left me in awe.

It was only after I arrived home and picked up the book, did I discover that
I had been had by three trusted listmembers....since the title proved to be
"Under the Frog".  While the reading was every bit as described by these
three "gentlemen", and would highly recomment it to all, I would caution all
of you to request it by it's proper title....thus save a little
embarrassment.  As for you three gents, ..... it's laughing time for you
now, and enjoy it!  Ok, ok, there are references to the arse of the frog
too, much later in the book...in the meantime, good one!!!

Thought that you might *all* enjoy this experience of taking not one, but
three's words for a fact.... and ending up as the laughing stock of a
bookstore here in Timbucktoo.  But it's ok, George, Sam and Joe.... I owe
you each one!  And always, always, I pay my debts!!!

Thanks for the recommendation and the laugh too (even though it *was* in
retrospect).  Seriously, it was great reading!  And you will forever be
remembered as the three "arses" of Coles (name of the bookstore)..

Regards,
Aniko

On Jul 25,  3:15pm, Aniko Dunford wrote:
> Subject: Re: Food - comfort and otherwise -
> Hi Bob:
> At 01:15 PM 7/25/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
> >Aniko, is the gomba porkolt (mushroom stew) made with csiperke (medow
> >mushrooms) or tinornu (Boletus edulis, what the French call Cep)? :-)
>
> I can't say, that I can picture the "Boletus edulis", (I'll look it up)  but
> csiperke is superb for sure.  My alltime favourite mushroom is one, which my
> great grandfather introduced to our family.  It grows in the Dunakanyar
> region, deep in Chestnut forests.  It is very large, thus meaty and has a
> distinct purplish tint.  The name "Varganya" comes to mind, but I won't dare
> suggest that I am right on this one!.  That is the variety which my
> Grandmother used to make Mushroom Porkolt from.   The flavour is
incredible!!!

Common mushroom names in Hungarian can be as unreliable as in English or any
other language. "Tinoru" and "varganya" are often used interchangebly; viz.
"izletes tinoru" or "izletes varganya" for Boletus edulis, the Cep, Steinpilz,
Penny Bun, etc. Your mentioning your family favorite mushroom as having a
"distinct purplish tint" has me puzzled because most boletes with purple tints
are too bitter to eat.

I have a surfeit of "rokagomba" or "chanterelles" in my fridge, we are having a
bountiful season due to the abundant rain this summer.

Sorry to bore the list with Hungarian mycology.  :-)

Bob Hosh

Sammy boy writes:
>>PS.  Hey Sammy boy, rumor has it that in real life you are Lyle's hair
>>dresser.:-)))  Wow!  Iiiiis thiiiis trueeee?  No wonder you advertise
>>him in each and every barf of yours.
>>
>>
>Uh, huh. I didn't think you had any concrete evidence to back up your
>claims. And you won't be getting a call from Letterman anytime soon to
>come write material for him. Once again, Barna, either post the evidence
>to back up your claims or shut up. You've already convinced me you're a
>dumbass. And thanks to the unintended evidence provided in your own posts,
>I don't doubt you've probably convinced a few others of the same.

Sammy, Sammy...   Face it, you are a thug.  And you are being treated as
such.  An indiscriminate, inconsiderate, reckless thug.  You don't even
attempt to actually make a point, your goal being intimidation, not
discussion.  In your rash attacks against most of the participants here,
you fail to obey even basic rules of logic, e.g.:
1.  In what form do you imagine "concrete evidence" would come on the
    Internet?  Were NPA to post a 50 page piece about it, would people
    believe him?  Or should he run a full page ad in the NYT?
2.  Would it not be stupid to publish the "all-important details" before
    the conclusion of the case?  Would you, if you had a case pending?
3.  Why would NPA and I, and a few others lie?  Why would I waste my time
    here defending someone with whom I don't even always agree (see
    Benke's excellent post)?

BTW: All the info I have given was (well-)intended and true.

Back to the point:  A MAN -- regardless who -- LOST HIS LIVELIHOOD BECAUSE
OF HIS (PERCEIVED) VIEWS.  Period.  I'll rephrase the question for you:
*assuming* that what we are saying is true, was that fair or not?  See if
you have any guts to answer this one.

Barna Bihari

PS.  No need to get all touchy about the Lyle thing.;-)  It was a
compliment: after all, you've been doing a maaaaavelous job on his hair.
Why did you drop his name off your signature file in such a haste??

PS2.  Letterman is no good.  And you are watching too much TV.  It shows.

Eva Balogh wrote:

>I must be clairvoyant!(;)) What is this nonsense I have been hearing
>at times from Mr. Nemenyi concerning his boss. Let me make myself clear: I
>asked a fellow Hungarian who works at Argonne to find out for me what
>happened. I was told that not just Nemenyi was fired but also his boss who
>wasn't vigilant enough concerning his activities. I passed that information
>on to those who were "most suspect" by Mr. Nemenyi and his supporters--four
>people all told.

That is exactly what I have just mentioned!
The only mistake was on her part, that my boss was not fired then. He was
fired a month later! Now it seems, that Eva's informant either reads future,
or he was in any ways involved with HR. Might have been the interpreter?

>My informant at Argonne didn't keep my request to himself (and I
>didn't ask him either, by the way) and he must have informed Mr. Nemenyi
>about my inquiry.

Wrong. Dead wrong. Eva's informant did not tell me anything. I had my own
way to monitor Eva's activities.

>Mr. Nemenyi, upon hearing this, announced that his boss wasn't fired and
my "mole," as he called my informant, misled me. A week or so later, however,
I was accused of actually causing his boss's loss of job!!

Lies, and more lies! The false rumor was spread on Forum by Eva's partner,
Gabor Fencsik, alias Karesz a month earlier  my boss was fired. I called
my boss , asking about the case. He told me, that he have heard about
the false rumor, but there is no investigation about him, and Argonne is
about to take action against the very man, who spread the false rumor.
That man was Eva's mole. I left a note with that man, trying to warn him,
about the inquiry, but I have learned, that he took his vacation and
left for Hungary. I did not accuse Eva other than snooping around, passing
false info to "Karesz", who injected his venom on Forum. And as Eva admits,
my accusations are true and valid!

>Hard to imagine how my inquiry to an employee (who doesn't even work
>in the same department of the organization) can possibly cause the firing of
>Mr. Nemenyi's boss. These are the kinds of announcements on Mr. Nemenyi's
>part which makes me even more suspicious of this whole story.

Because Eva trying to sell this ticket once more, I declare again: I don't
think that Eva's snooping caused my boss to lose his job. I know why he
lost his job, but that matter is not to be broadcasted on this platform.
It was just convenient for Argonne, to make him a scape goat. So Eva
should not over estimate her part in this dirty case. She is dirty, but
in another way. :-)

NPA.

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker wrote:

>We've always had a few people in every religion at every time in human
>history who've found reason to think that blood offerings are somehow
>valid.

And she is right. There are many instances of such events in recorded
human history.

>This is made worse by the fact that when political powers were trying
>to get rid of political or social opponents or "misfits," this was also
>a favorite accusation against opponents--along with devil worship.

No doubt about that. There were many false blood accusation, and there
were genuine cases. When the subject came up, I cited couple dozen cases
from a wide spectrum of historical sources. Possibly some were false, but
flatly announcing all of them false? That is a stretch!

>--Worse, "confessions" could, and were, brutally extracted under torture
>to confirm _both_ real and imaginary events. It is very hard to sort out
>the realities of almost any day and age--even now, about today.

Sure it is. But instead of searching historical events, the subject was
shut off, declaring antisemitic. In the same time, if the topic would
have bee about the Mayas, there would not have been any uproar.

>At several points in his book he reminds the reader that man is a social
>creature, and that the basic meaning of conspiracy is a group of people
>getting together in common interest and agreement to act upon that common
>interest and agreement.  He points out that conspiracies of all sorts do
>exist everywhere and we generally think nothing of them.

Be careful! When I wrote about the same thing, I was ridiculed. History
itself is a chain of conspiracy, and that is quite normal.

>Certainly I know a lot of Hungarians and East Europeans who felt that
>the U.S. had a lot to do with what happened to their nations after 1945,
>weren't exactly thrilled with what they perceived as the "U.S. stupidity,"
>and were determined to prevent events from repeating, or finding a way
>to undo the situations.

What can I say? It is quite uncommon to read such well put sentences!

>Jewish people to be any different?  And if not all Hungarian actions
>done by Hungarians in one or another groups have been "good," or seem
>unduly selfish, why would we not expect to see that anything different
>among the equally human Jewish people?

That was the very base of the argument about the blood accusations.

>"Contemporary American conspiracy theorists tend to downplay the
>secret society angle.  European conspiracy theorists pay secret societies
>much more attention.  But the archetype is there.  The CIA and the
>Trilateralists both fit the model.  They have been secret societies forever,
>it seems, and they still exist today.

I think that is the very subject, that doesn't get any tolerance especially
from those, who preach tolerance and free speech.

NPA.

In article >, 
says...
>
>From: Tibor Benke >
>Subject:      Re: Curious Food Names in Hungarian Cookbooks . . .
>
>at 5:32 a.m. 7/17/96/ Eva Balogh wrote in reply to Agnes:
>>
>>>New subject:  I just learned last year that "csombor"is nothing less
than
>>>oregano!  Did you guys/girls knew that?
>>>
>>        No, I didn't. Most interesting. I didn't even know that
Hungarian
>>cuisine used oregano until this morning when I read a Transylvanian
dish,
>>asking for "csombor." Needless to say, I skipped "csombor," although
most
>>likely my intellectual curiosity should have kicked in, but it didn't.
The
>>Hungarian dictionary says that "csombor" is Slavic and it is "folkish
>>[ne'pies]. Otherwise, apparently we call it "borsfu"." I have never
heard of
>>that either.
>>
>
>Sorry to bring this up again, but we seemed to have gone culinarily
astray.
>Oregano (Origanum vulgare) is rarely if at all used in Hungarian
cooking. It's
>Hungarian name is "szurokfu" or vadmajornna. Marjoram (Origanum
majorana) is
>used in Hungrian cooking, especially Transylvanian cooking.
>
>On the other hand, "csombor" or "borsfu" (Satureia hortensis) called
Summer
>Savory in English is used a lot in German and Transylvanian cookery. The
German
>name is Bohnenkraut and no bean or cabbage dish is authentic without it.
 This
>herb intensifies the flavor of beans, fresh or dried.
>
>My 1970 four volume set of Orszagh's dictionary does not even list
"oregano",
>but does mention "szurokfu" on p. 1866. "Csombor" is listed on p. 312.
>
>Another interesting list of culinary herbs is "Herbs and spices of
>Transylvania" on pages 342-345 of Paul Kovi's Transylvanian Cusine, New
York:
>Crown Publishers, Inc., 1985. Or check out his earlier Hungarian version
 of
>this book: Erdelyi lakoma, Corvina, 1980. "Csombor" is delt with on page
344 of
>the former and page 235 of the latter.
>
>
>Bob Hosh


Thank you very much for the interesting explanation.  That spice sheet
TIbor is mentioning also says about oregano what you do.  It was a
cousine of my husband last year in Budapest who told me that she
discovered that the oregano she brought home from her travels smelled and
tasted the same as csombor, so it must be the same.  Anyway, since that
time I am using it much-much more than before when I thought it only
belongs into pasta sauce.

Agnes

At 12:43 PM 7/25/96 -0400, you wrote:
>How about lecso?  I'm told there are different variations.  When people
>took me to restaurants in BP, they kept steering me to the "English"
>dishes.

I have yet to go to restaurant in BP (unless of course obviously of foreign
origin ie Italian, Chineese, the like, where English dishes are predominant)

> And I kept shouting, "Bring me lecso!"  They said, "But that is a
>poor person's dish."  I said, "Then I qualify."  They could not believe
>any of this, but I got my lecso.
>
>Do only poor people eat this?
>
Well, I can only add, coming from within that is, that you must have great
taste in food at least to be shouting for Lecso.  Regarding the poor man's
comment, I might add, that lecso is a legend in time which should never be
associated with a lifestyle or a class of life anyways.  Lecso is just is.
As such, Lecso, is by no means to me a poor man's food nor is it a rich
man's food.

For the sake of interest, each trip I take to Hungary requires that I put in
my order for the first dinner at home.   Quess what I ask for?  And you can
also guess the reaction each time, I am sure!  (Especially at a point when
peppers and tomatoes are more expensive than meat).  My request for the
second day is always goose liver.  Now, this can no longer be considered
"poor man's food" in today's Hungary:(!.

Regards,
Aniko

In article >,  says...
>
>At 9:46 p.m. 7/24/96, Joe Szalai wrote:
>
>>"Chicken Paprika" and "Goulash"(that spelling sucks, big time!) are the
>>foods most often associated with Hungarian cuisine.  But how would
>>non-Hungarians know about the real, popular, comfort foods that
Hungarians
>>eat?  It concerns me somewhat that someone may pick up a copy of Lang's
"The
>>Cuisine of Hungary" and prepare a meal of "Peach in Champagne Soup",
>>"Stuffed Breast of Veal Bourgeoise", and "Baked Prunes Radva'nszky",
and
>>believe that they're having an Hungarian meal.
>>
>>Many of the contributors to this list indicated that the foods at
Sunday
>>dinner are fairly typical.  What about other foods we eat?  What foods
were,
>>or are, common in your kitchen?  Perhaps we can get a list going to
help
>>non-Hungarians familiarize themselves with *real* Hungarian food.
>>
>>I'll start by listing a few of the foods we ate often.
>>
>>To:lto:tt ka'poszta          Cabbage rolls
>>Rakott krumpli               Layered potatoes
>>Tu'ro's te'szta              Noodles with cottage cheese
>>Krumplis te'szta             Noodles with potatoes
>>Po:rko:lt                    Porkolt
>>
>
> Rakott Kelkaposzta  (Savoy Cabbage, ground beef&pork, sour cream --
>layered and baked)
>
> nothing like kolbasz and/or szalami or disznosajt (headcheese) with
fresh
>bread and green peppers and tomatoes for breakfast.  Not to speak of
>kocsonya (aspic usually of pigs feet and/or head)
>
>Teperto" and red onions with bread
>
>Teperto"s Pogacsa  (Teperto" is the meat left over when they render
lard,
>pogacsa is a  biscuit 's'=[sh] is the ending meaning 'with' but in this
>case really 'in')
>
>Tibor Benke

Paprikas krumpli es lecso! Palancsinta es szilvasgomboc! Kapros tok
fozelek es zoldbab fozelek; toltott paprika;  vadas hus es zsemlegomboc.
(Ti nyelveszek - forditsatok le!)

Agnes

In article >, 
says...
>
>On Tue, 23 Jul 1996 21:37:23 -0400, "Zoli Fekete, keeper of
>hungarian-faq" > wrote:
>
>>
>>On Tue, 23 Jul 1996, Bob Hosh wrote:
>>> Pacal is not lung (tudo); it is tripe, which is part of the stomach
of
>>> ruminants used for food.
>>
>> I believe this main ingredient is called 'bendo3' in Hungarian,
however I
>>think pacal may, and usually does, have smaller amounts of other inside
>>bovine parts as well. A lot of people love it as a specialty dish,
>>although on this one I side with Eva ;-) considering it an awful meal.
>>
>
>Would y'all knock it off with this disgusting food! Yuck! This is not
>Scotland, you know.
>
>I had my taste buds all set for the trip to Toronto next month, now I
>will be terrified that the Hungarian restaurants will try to sneak
>some tripe by me. :-)
>
>Seriously, any recommendations for a restaurant in Toronto that serves
>a decent fata'nye'ros?
>
>Heah in Birmingham, the best I can do, Hungarian-food wise, is to
>pretend that grits can be made into grizgaluska.
>
>You lucky Northerners, you.
>
>Bandi
>
>=============================================================
>      Andrew J. Rozsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
>      <OR>  
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
>=============================================================
>
>
>
Bloor St. between Bathurst and Spadina is "little Hungary".  The two
good, very reasonable restaurants are the Country Style and right across
it the Continental.  They are not licensed.  For more elegant dining,
including music, there is the Csardas.  There are quite a few others in
downtown.  I have seen the Budapest Diner advertised (778 St.Clair W.),
but never ate there.

Agnes

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On Thu, 25 Jul 1996, Barna L. Bihari wrote:
> Back to the point:  A MAN -- regardless who -- LOST HIS LIVELIHOOD BECAUSE
> OF HIS (PERCEIVED) VIEWS.  Period.
 This is not true as stated, period. A man quit his job - quite possibly
to pursue another carrier. The alleged forcing him to do so was BECAUSE
he violated the employer's contract he himself signed.

> I'll rephrase the question for you:
> *assuming* that what we are saying is true, was that fair or not?
 *Assuming* that all you are saying is true, the only fairness question
could be this: how come that in the events between NPA and his employer,
the allegedly threatened-for action - the firing which as you're saying
didn't happen after all - by the former based on improper behavior of the
latter is being blamed on some "rats" who might have brought into
attention his publically known postings from the account he'd been told
not to use so?

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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In article >,
 says...
>Ah, but then Real Hungarians (TM) take preventitive measures in the form
>of a large shot of fruit brandy first thing in the morning, on an empty
>stomach, to prepare it for the looming fat intake.  Besides, not all fatty
>stuff comes from salami.  My parents' favourite breakfast is chopped
>salted/smoked fatback well sweated in a pan and a couple of eggs fried
>in the resulting pool of fat.  The unspoken derision was withering when
>I first mentioned breakfast cereals to them.

French cuisine is one of the richest in the world and the French also smoke
a lot, yet they don't have anything like the cardiovascular problems that,
say, the British have. Why? Because the French drink tons of wine and
liberally consume masses of garlic, both excellent for dealing with those
fatty problems (and in southern France, olive oil completes the trinity of
the ideal basis for both a rich and healthy diet.)

Greeks often like a stiff brandy in the morning, Ouzo for elevenses (or
maybe Raki in Crete and Cyprus,) wine with lunch and buckets of wine in
the evening! Yep, they also use garlic: best way to make kalamari is with
their terrific garlic sauce (not breadcrumbs, ugh!) and, of course, they
thrive on olive oil.

Someone mentioned the Korda bros a few postings back: I know that
Alexander Korda was advised by his doctor to lay off the big cigars:
later in life he became addicted to them and couldn't give them up.
Perhaps he didn't drink enough? Churchill liked cigars, too, but he
also drank like a fish and lived to a ripe old age! In other words,
follow the French, Greek and Real Hungarian (TM) examples above!

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ARM Club * C=64..ICPUG * NW London CC