Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> On Tue, 16 Jul 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:
> >         Zoli, you should have translated the word "baratfule," because it
is
> > so colorful: monk's ear. Great stuff, all of it.
>  But then this is one of those cases where much of it is lost in
> translation ;-)...
>
> >         By the way, the nudli's elegant name is "burgonyamete'lt." Why
> > "mete'lt" only God knows because "mete'lni" means "to cut" and you
certainly
> > don't cut the "nudli." Well, you do, kind of. Once you make a long, narrow
> > roundish dough, you cut them into not too long "nudlik."
>
>  Well, actually one does typically cut the dough into longish strips, then
> down to the right lenght and then roll them into the final shape - so you
> are sort of cutting ('mete1l') in the meantime, not that it completely
> explains the 'official' name.
>
> - --
>  Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
> *SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
> *with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
> *excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!
>
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If memory serves me right, the name of the instrument that one uses to
make 'bar't f:ule' is 'derelye mete'lo>', hence the 'mete'lt te'szta'. Or
am I wrong? (I do have one of them from "home".)
Jozsi Hill

Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> At 03:32 AM 7/16/96 GMT, Steven C. Scheer wrote:
>
> >Of course, by now accusations of sacrilege have also begun
> >to show their ugly heads. Here, I must side with Joe Szalai
> >as against our friend, Zoli Fekete. Porkolt is a paprikas
> >without sour cream. And, paraxical as this may sound, paprikas
> >is a porkolt without sour cream. Think about it. Would I
> >kid you? Also, Zoli, "nudli" is just another name for "teszta,"
> >for which our elegant name is "metelt."
>
> Thanks for siding with me Steven but I'm afraid I'm going to have to side
> with Zoli Fekete on "nudli".  Zoli and I may be using the wrong word here,
> but he mentioned that "nudli" had potatoes added to the flour.  In a more
> recent post Zoli Fekete wrote:
>
> >I must rise to defend to good name of "nudli"! It is a specific
> >cigar-shaped species, unlike the ribbon-like "metelt" - neither of which
> >is equivalent to the all-encompassing generic "teszta".
>
> Cigar-shaped species?  That's a very good clue.  Whenever my mother made
> "gombo'c" stuffed with plums (not often enough!) she would leave some of the
> flour and potatoe mixture aside and make "nudli".  They were cigar-shaped
> and they were put into the boiling water just like nokedli.  Then they were
> quickly removed and placed into a large frying pan in which bread crumbs
> were fried in lard.  Alternatives to bread crumbs were poppy seeds and
> sugar, or a mixture of bread crumbs and sugar.  The kids always went for the
> plum gombo'c first, and, if there was still room in our stomachs we'd eat
> some poppy seed or bread crumbs and sugar "nudli".  My parents usually ate
> the "nudli" with bread crumbs without sugar.  They just added a bit of salt.
> It was only later in life that I realized that it too was edible.
>
> Is "nudli" the right word for the above food?
>
> Joe SzalaiYes, 'nudli' is made from the left over 'gomboc te'szta'.
(Scheduled for
my next meal!) 'Nokedli' is made of water, flour, oil (zsir?) eggs and
salt, no potatoes.
Jo'zsi Hill

Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
>
> Now that we got on the subject of kolbasz....
> There are many types:
> Gyulai
> Csabai
> Veres (blood), etc.
>
> In any case does anyone know of a Hungarian (or H. type) butcher shop
> that makes Hungarian flavoured/type sausages in the Wash. DC area??
>
> Peter SolteszNo, not in the DC area, but Bende & Son Salami from the Chicago
area
ships anywhere, and you name it, they have it. Tel: 708-913-0304, Fax:
708-913-0001.
My Great Uncle (from Kolozsvar) used to make the best 'fu:sto:lt
kolba'sz'. I still have his recepie. If you are interested, please send
an e-mail note and I'll be happy to send it. Can be made into
'fasirozott'.
Jozsi Hill

Szegedinsky gulas is a very common (and excellent) Slovak dish, made as
Hugh describes (and usually served with halusky as the side starchy dish
to absorb the creamy sauce).  I had heard that it was not a Hungarian
dish and no one I've known has ever been able to explain why it is named
for the city of Szegedin.  Presumably Czechs picked it up from Slovaks
and kept the name for it , of course.

Can anyone else explain the name?


Norma Rudinsky
.


On Tue, 16 Jul 1996, Bob Hosh wrote:

> On Jul 16,  2:47pm, Hugh Agnew wrote:
> > One of my favorite Czech dishes is what we call "segedinsky gulas" (thus,
> > obviously, identified in the Czech mind--if anyone still knows geography--
> > with Szeged).  It's made with pork, not beef, has sour cabbage in it, and
> > has a sour-cream paprika sauce.  Does this resemble any "real" Hungarian
> > dish in any way, and if so, is there any demonstrable connection to Szeged?
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Hugh Agnew
> > 
>
> This is interesting, a good friend of mine recently visited Germany where she
> had "Szegedin Goulasch" and wanted to know how to make it. It too, was
> described as made with pork.  What Hugh and my friend described sounds
> suspeciously like "Szekely gulyas", a dish with an interesting history. Or is
> it a dish that is only made outside of Hungary? I've never encounter the name
> "Szegedi gulyas".  Can anyone shed more light on this subject?
>
> Bob Hosh
> 
>

Zoltan, you wrote:

>Regina,

RVK> >  Zoltan,   You are talking about babbling. Gosh, what would
RVK> >      you call your "essay" below?
Z>It's not an essay in any meaning. It's just a piece
Z>of opinion.
It certainly is "a piece of opinion".....blah, blah.

RVK>>    And the X & Y story! How sweet of you to not wanting to
RVK> >   name names, --     don't be so coy!
Z>So you could reveal the real names. I'm destroyed.
Oh my dear, I would not think of doing it ever... it would be such a
scandal.

>>RVK   The "radical left-winger ideologist" label is used very
>>RVK   freely by you, do you really know what it means? You are
>>RVK   getting carried away. It does not fit X or Y at all.
Z>If my memory does not cheat me, I used it for Herbert
Z>Marcuse. Just check it, dear  > Sz. Zoli
Aren't we patronizing dear? - -

Just checking it dear - if my memory serves me right I did ask you a
question in my previous post
which you failed to answer, so let me ask you again: "are you a radical
right-wing
ideologist?"  So lets hear it....

Au revoir
                  Regina V. Kalvary

On Wed, 17 Jul 1996 10:17:49 -0700, "Eva S. Balogh"
> wrote:

>At 03:52 AM 7/17/96 GMT, Bandi Rozsa wrote:
>>U.I. A smiley... The definition of fasirt in my 2-volume Magyar
>>Ertelmezo Keziszotar (Akademiai Kiado, 1992) is (tadah!): vagdalt hus.
>>:-). Hardly.
>
>        You have *a two-volume Magyar Ertelmezo Keziszotar*? I am jelous. My
>old one (first edition) is only one volume.
>
>        Eva Balogh

Ja, but I need it much worse than you do. :-)))

Got it from Puski-Corvin. Methinks he had a 4-volume one, too. I had
to draw the line somewhere. :-)

Rozsa Bandi

> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rozsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
 < OR >  
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> =============================================================

On Wed, 17 Jul 1996 06:55:25 GMT,  (AND Books)
wrote:

>Italian Autodidact ) wrote:
>
>: Hi, I'm posting this article from Italy.
>
>: I've just started learning  Hungarian as an auotdidact
>: and I would like someone in this Newsgroup to help me
>: with the following:
>
>: Sajnos kave nincs / sajnos kavet nincs


Ladies and Gentlemen:

I think we can call the mission accomplished: 'achilles' must be (by
now) thoroughly confused.

Congratulations to us all for a job well done! :-))))

Ci vediamo,

Rozsa Bandi
> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rozsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
 < OR >  
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> =============================================================

In article >, Pope Joe Paul
Szalai > handed down the following
encyclical:

>I couldn't have said it better myself, Sam.  But I forgot something.
Maybe
>you can help.  Do you remember what year the American revolutionaries
were
>canonized?
>
>Joe Szalai


They were voted into the Hall of Fame the same year as William Lyon
Mackenzie. Care to enlighten all of us with some examples of the kind of
behavior I attributed to Kun's Communist followers and Gombos and his
White Terrorists committed by Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, et. al.?
What's that? Speak up, thou Nietzschean Superman!
Sam Stowe
Sam Stowe

"When you find the one you might become,
Remember part of me is you..."
 -- "Simple Song", Lyle Lovett

In article >,
 (Gyorgy Kovacs) wrote:
>In article >,
>Lacko/Kohn > wrote:
>>
>> My instinct says:
>>
>>Sajnos, nincsen kavet.
>>
>>If you want to say: I'm sorry, I don't have coffee.
>>
>>Margarita

>
>
>That is incorrect. If you want to say: "Sorry, I don't have coffee" than the
>following versions are correct and used:
>Sajnos nincs ka've'm. (the ' stands for an accent on top of the preceding
>vowel)
>Sajnos ka've'm nincs. (This stresses that I have other stuff but no coffee)
>

Wouldn't "ka've'm" mean "my coffee"?

I agree that my instinct (above) is not correct. Drop the t in kave.
Just for the records, my hungarian is what I learn from my parents as a child.
I didn't learn how to write.

Margarita

On Wed, 17 Jul 1996 18:50:12 -0700, "Joseph U. & Sharon W. Hill"
<"http://candles"@community.net> wrote:

>Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
>>
>> Now that we got on the subject of kolbasz....
>> There are many types:
>> Gyulai
>> Csabai
>> Veres (blood), etc.
>>
>> In any case does anyone know of a Hungarian (or H. type) butcher shop
>> that makes Hungarian flavoured/type sausages in the Wash. DC area??
>>
>Can be made into 'fasirozott'.
>Jozsi Hill

Sacrilege!!!

:-))

> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rozsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
 < OR >  
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> =============================================================

>I also have a question.  Does anyone know of an authoritative work on the
>Intellectual History of Hungary in the 19th and early Twentieth Centuries?
>
>Thank Ypu for your kind attention.
>Tibor Benke

Try Berend T. Ivan, VALSAGOS EVTIZEDEK. Budapest: Magveto, 1987,

Peter I. Hidas

Hungarian Studies
Department Of Russian and Slavic Studies
McGill University
Montreal, Quebec, Canada

At 11:12 AM 7/6/96, Martin Perlmutter wrote:
>Appreciate very much you're having answered my request for information
>concerning the town of Verschutz. I'm certain that's its Hungarian name. It
>still shows on the map being somewhat north and west of Temoshvahr. I am
>reminded that my mother (now deceased) always referred to the latter as the
>place to go shopping as it was the largest such municipality in the district.
>Verschutz was also a grape growing area renowned for its tokai wine.
>Thanks for taking an interest in this long overdue search of mine.
>Best wishes.
>Martin Perlmutter
>-------------------------------------
>Name: Martin Perlmutter
>E-mail: Martin Perlmutter >
>Date: 07/06/96
>Time: 11:12:38
>
>
>-------------------------------------

Dear Martin,

I believe the name of the town you are interested in is Versecz. The town
is located at about ten miles  south of Temesvar.  At the beginning of the
19th century it had a mixed population of Romanians, Hungarians, Serbs and
Croatians. At that time most of the people were Roman Catholics but there
was a small Jewish community there too.

You may want to consult the following sources:

Cohen, Israel. THE JEWS OF RUMANIA. London: 1938.
Kempelen, Bela. MAGYARORSZAGI ZSIDO ES ZSIDOEREDETU CSALADOK. 3 volumes.
Budapest: 1937-1939.
Sos, Endre. A ZSIDOK A MAGYAR VAROSOKBAN.
Pinkas  Hakehillot: Rumania [Encyclopedia of Jewish Communities]. in
Hebrew. Jerusalem: Yad Vashem, 1969.

For particular names you have to contact the a Mormon library in Salt Lake
City. They have the list of all the Jews in 19th c. communities in East
Central Europe.

Good luck with your search.

Peter I. Hidas

Hungarian Studies
Department Of Russian and Slavic Studies
McGill University
Montreal, Quebec, Canada

At 6:05 p.m. 7/16/96  Eva Balogh wrote:



>
>        (1) Tibor Benke claimed that the excesses of capitalism were
>responsible for communism. When I asked what he meant by communism, he said
>he meant the Bolshevik revolution and the Soviet system which followed.


I spoke of no excesses, I  simply spoke of Capitalism, and I meant
Capitalism as a historically determinate social formation, including the
political, cultural, economic, military  and other social structures
associated with it.  Similarly by 'Communism'  I meant a historically
determinate social formation which began with the Bolshevik Revolution and
continued more or less intact until the advent of Gorbachev as first
Secretary of th KPSU.

>        (2) I pointed out to him that Russia was not a full-fledged
>capitalist country, moreover, if capitalism was responsible for 1917 and
>after then in all capitalist countries similar revolutions and "proletarian"
>dictatorship would have followed. Clearly this didn't happen. I mentioned
>that the concensus among historians is that the immediate cause of the
>bolshevik revolution was war weariness and economic exhaustion as a result
>of a war for which Russia was economically and technically unprepared. I
>also pointed out that revolutionary outbreaks occurred only in countries
>which lost the war: Germany, Hungary, and, in effect, Russia.

This is a fair summary of the arguments.  Except that I nowhere spoke of
"immediate" causes and, as I recall, even tried to point this out.  Perhaps
my rather clumsy (overly agressive, petulant?) style obscured the point  --
I apologize.  But I did mention some things about levels of analysis and
proximate and primary causes.  Here I would also add the distinction
between neccessary and sufficient causes.

>        (3) Then came those who were not satisfied with this explanation:
>Eva Durant, Joe Szalai, and naturally, Tibor Benke. They tried everything
>under the sun to convince the world that the Bolshevik revolution and
>soviet-style communism was the result of capitalist excesses. Yes, Russia
>was not as well developed as England or the United States but, by 1917,
>there was a global economy--said Joe Szalai. The problem here is that this
>doesn't help his case a bit. Because if there was a global capitalist
>economy then the more developed capitalist countries would have been the
>first to experience a bolshevik-type revolution. Then, we had interesting
>little stories about all those Russian aristocrats who were Francophiles,
>and, after all, France was a capitalist country. Very weak, isn't it. Then,
>we heard that the Russian "ruling class" was weak and hence . . . . Well, in
>my opinion that doesn't wash either. Then came Lenin's explanation: some of
>the capitalist countries acquired colonies and the money coming from the
>exploitation of the colonies were spent on appeasing the working class and
>thus to postpone the revolution. There are a couple of problems with that
>explanation as well. Some of the countries didn't have colonies. And today,
>the European capitalist countries have no colonies whatsoever, and yet the
>bolshevik-type revolution alludes them. The latest is Joe Szalai's confusion
>concerning the welfare state. He seems to forget that the bolshevik
>revolution occurred in 1917 and the welfare state as we know it is about
>thirty years old. And, of course, Joe Szalai tried the old trick of
>sidetracking the issue: he began an argument about the nature of this
>revolution. It was not a proletarian revolution because it was not lead by
>proletarians. But, of course, this is beside the point.

Here, I cannot speak for the others, but my reply is not represented
fairly.  I acknowledged that Eva's discription of the immediate causes of
the Bolshevik Revolution were as she discribed, but I pointed out that
these were merely the proximate (and I would add now, neccessary) causes.
They are not sufficient to explain the form the revolution took.

There is a long catalogue of peasant rebbellions and revolutions in the
history of Europe and Asia, going back to the centuries before the common
era.  My field is not History, so if I am wrong,  I welcome correction.
Many of these came about after the sort of crisis factors that Eva
discribes.  The Dozsa rebbellion in Hungary, the Munster episode in Germany
are but two examples which come to mind.  None of these episodes resulted
in anything like a socialist state or a superpower.  What made the
Bolshevik Revolution unique, (among other things) was the existence of a
vanguardist Party that was working to create and/or take advantege of, a
"revolutionary" situation.  It also had an analysis or an ideology to
orient itself by, which enabled it to maintain itself in power through a
civil war, American and British intervention, a full scale invasion by the
most modern army in the world and a fourty year nuclear arms race.

Eva also argues above that if Capitalism had really caused Communism the
countries were Capitalism had developed the furthest would have had
revolutions first.  This is the oft repeated "Marx's was a bad prophet"
argument.  It would be a valid one if Uncle Karl had actually intended to
follow in the footsteps of his famous forbears, Isaiah, Elijah, or Jonah.
However, he was merely a 19th century scholar.  He analysed a pressing
problem of his time, the periodic devestation caused by the rather wide
swings of the business cycle in his day.  He made some astute observations,
about which, regardless of the fate of actually existing socialism, the
jury is still out.  In my view, he greatly underestimated the importance of
religion and ethnicity, and ignored the role of Nature.  Nevertheless, he
seems to have pointed to some important trends  -- the tendency of Capital
to consolidation, for instance, or the phenomenon he called 'alienation' as
a result of the capitalist labour proccess.  Also, with respect to history,
after W.W. I., for example,  much of Europe became Totalitarian.  What is
more, though the totalitarianisms had what one might call "national
characteristics",they all meant a larger then ever previously conceived
role for the state in the economy, and they all pruported to act on behalf
of the workers.  Mussolini was part of the socialist movement before he
became a Fascist and Hitler's Party had "Arbeiter" in its name.  It was
only the Bolshevism itself, by claiming representation of the working class
to itself alone, that obscured that the "dictatorship of the Proletariat"
almost was a reality.  And even in the countries that remained democratic,
the state increased its role in the economy.  He and Engels were also
uncannily accurate about the changes to be expected in kinship systems,
which is why Engels' little essay, "The Origin of Private Property, the
Family and the State" is considered a seminal work among scholars who deal
with the sociology of the family.

But I digress.  Getting back to the topic at hand,  let us perform a
thought experiment.  Let us say that somehow some clever person had decided
to give ole' Karl a job as a Proffessor at some second rate university in
some obscure German town right after he got his Doctorate and before he
married.  How would history have changed?  What would have happened in
Russia after W.W. I.?

Other contributors have pointed out in more detail then I would ever be
able to the very present influences of the emerging World Capitalist System
on the territories of Russia.  So I still remain to be convinced that I was
wrong when I said:  "Capitalism caused Communism, have we learned anything
yet?"


Respectfully,
Tibor Benke

At 6:05 p.m.  Eva Balogh wrote:

>        Johanne wrote many very intelligent things in reply to Joe Szalai's
>post but here I am concentrating on the following:
>
>At 07:27 AM 7/16/96 -0300, Johanne wrote:
>
>>As I remember, the key thing about the Czarist government was not just that
>>it was totalitarian, but that it was an *inefficient* and *ineffective*
>>totalitarian government.
>
>        Yes, I agree although I wouldn't call it "totalitarian regime,"
>which is a term which we can use only since the introduction of the soviet
>system. Authoritarian would be perhaps a better word.
>

Isn't the technically proper term 'absolutist'?

Tibor Benke

"Paolo Agostini >" > wrote:

>> from my mother's cookbook :-), I know that  "stuffed cabbage" are  not
>>"galuste"  but what Romanians called "sarmale." "Galuste" are made out
>>of egg and farina.

>You are probably right, but do not forget I quoted my sources in advance.
>Maybe the linguists who wrote those important dictionaries were
>unable to cook an egg. But they are not very likely to be wrong. If
>they said that in the Csango dialect -- at the time the collected
>these words -- the word meant "stuffed cabbage", then we should grant
>them a minimum of credibility.

My comment hasn't challenged your sources dealing with the
Csango-word for "stuffed cabbage." Regardless of what "galuska" means
in Csango, the Romanian word for stuffed cabbage is not "galusca" but
"sarmale". The dish, although probably imported from the Balkans, is
often served and presented as a traditional Romanian meal. Stuffed
vine leaves, called "sarmalutze" because of their smaller size, are
also popular in Romania These are actually,  very similar to the Greek
"dolmales" (sp. !?).

Regards,

Liviu Iordache

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Joseph U. & Sharon W. Hill wrote:
>[story of nudli, aka 'ma1kos mete1lt'...]
> If memory serves me right, the name of the instrument that one uses to
> make 'bar't f:ule' is 'derelye mete'lo>', hence the 'mete'lt te'szta'. Or
> am I wrong? (I do have one of them from "home".)

 As far as I recall, it may simply be 'derelye va1go1' (ie. cutter) - a
fancy toothed wheel that one rolls to get the uniquely teethmarked squares
constituting the 'bara1tfu2le' pasta. To my mind 'mete1lt te1szta' is of
longish ribbon-like shape, to be formed by slashing dough formed into thin
sheet with a sharp blade (or a grid of multiple ones); I don't think
derelye would properly be called 'mete1lt', although that could be one of
the official names (which are often far removed from common usage).
 Incidentally, calling the nudli 'mete1lt' also sounds strange to me -
I'd associate that with plain 'ma1kos te1szta', to which 'nudli' is
superior ;-)...

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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ItALL should be spelled with an E not an I as in derek, kerek, fenek.
Peter

On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, T.Kocsis wrote:

> In article > Zsoter Andras,
>  writes:
> >Nominative: to' , so' , lo'
> >Accusative tavat, so't, lovat
>
> >Logical, isn't it? ;-)
>
> Also:
> kerik --> kerekes
> fenik --> fenekes
> derik --> derekas  ;-)
>
> Tamas
>

Turkish baths...eh???
Well perhaps 30 years ago it was fine to visit them...but I would stay
away from them...If you want osme mineral hot springs (radiactive too)
try one of the hotels like Gellert or the Acquincum off Margit Island on
the Buda side...

Turkish baths have deteriorated in BP both in the type of people and the
buildings...they allow both sexes to enter.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 18 Jul 1996, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
> Turkish baths have deteriorated in BP both in the type of people and the
> buildings...they allow both sexes to enter.
              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 That I'd say is rather an improvement ;-)...

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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July 17, 1996

HOUSE COMMITTEE PASSES NATO EXPANSION BILL

CHAIRMAN CITES CENTRAL AND EAST EUROPEAN COALITION
AS MAJOR CONSTRUCTIVE INFLUENCE

A bill to initiate NATO expansion cleared a major legislative hurdle
July 10, 1996, when the House International Relations Committee
overwhelmingly approved H.R. 3564, the NATO Enlargement
Facilitation Act of 1996.

The Central and East European Coalition (CEEC) - of which the Hungarian
American Coalition is a lead member - played a major role in providing input
for the legislation.  The bill states that Hungary, Poland, and the Czech
Republic should be eligible for additional assistance of sixty million
dollars.

On June 20, Frank Koszorus, Jr. of the Hungarian American Coalition
testified on behalf of the CEEC before the International Relations
Committee at the request of Chairman Benjamin Gilman (R-NY).
The 18-member Coalition subsequently submitted a letter to  the
International Relations Committee signed by the national leaders of the
organization, including Rt. Rev. Imre Bertalan, chairman of the Hungarian
American Coalition.  Endorsing the bill, the Coalition asserted:
//H.R. 3564 is a valid and critical step forward in the process of
opening up NATO to new member countries in Central and
Eastern Europe - a process that cannot succeed without the strong,
principled and bipartisan leadership of the United States as
expressed in this legislation.//

During the debate on the bill, Gilman expressed deep and sincere
gratitude to the CEEC for supporting the legislation.  //The Central
and East European Coalition has provided invaluable insights to
the Committee on the economic, political and security concerns
of Central and Eastern Europe,// the chairman said.  In a separate
statement, Gilman urged support for this legislation which may be
considered by the House as early as next week.

_______________________________________________________
For more information please contact the Hungarian American Coalition/s
Washington office:
818 Connecticut Ave., NW, Ste 850, Washington, DC  20006.
Tel:  (202) 296-9505,  Fax: (202) 775-5175

At 10:02 AM 7/18/96 -0400, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:

>Turkish baths...eh???
>Well perhaps 30 years ago it was fine to visit them...but I would stay
>away from them...If you want osme mineral hot springs (radiactive too)
>try one of the hotels like Gellert or the Acquincum off Margit Island on
>the Buda side...
>
>Turkish baths have deteriorated in BP both in the type of people and the
>buildings...they allow both sexes to enter.

What do you mean by deterioration and "type of people"?  Is allowing both
sexes to enter a deterioration?  Or are you hinting at something else?  Just
spit it out, will ya?

Joe Szalai

At 09:19 PM 7/17/96 -0400, Zoli Fekete wrote:

> Well with all due respect, all those hardships could only teach you
>what's that like in Northern America (which just happens to be the richest
>part of the world), not what it was (is) in Hungary.
> Any-one saying to us who started back home that making $4.5K has made you
>understanding just proves that it really hasn't.

        You know as well as I know that you cannot use the exchange rate and
come out with a reasonable conversion of living standards. $4.500.00 was not
enough to live on. An apartment in New Haven was close to $400.00/month. And
I worked very, very hard, first-time teaching East European history from
Lithuania to Bulgaria and Macedonia and a thousand years of it.

        Eva Balogh

At 11:47 PM 7/17/96 -0700, Norma Rudinsky wrote:

>Szegedinsky gulas is a very common (and excellent) Slovak dish, made as
>Hugh describes (and usually served with halusky as the side starchy dish
>to absorb the creamy sauce).

        I have the feeling that it is a common Hungarian-Slovak dish, simply
because they lived in one country for so long. Your claim that it is a
Slovak dish reminds me of something. One day I was listening to the radio in
my car somewhere in Upper New York State and there was a program on Slovak
folksongs. And what do I hear? All those "Hungarian" folksongs we all used
to sing. These tunes had Slovak as well as Hungarian lyrics.

>I had heard that it was not a Hungarian
>dish and no one I've known has ever been able to explain why it is named
>for the city of Szegedin.

        It is hard to believe that in Slovak it is called segendinsky gulyas
and yet it is not also a Hungarian dish.

        Eva Balogh

Dear Regina,

I did not intend to cause you any pain, whatsoever,
by calling you dear. I'm really, really sorry about
that. I call ladies dear until they don't prove the
opposite. Just take it easy, please.

And not, I do not like radicalism, because it is a
jump into the un-known and also hurts/oppresses/kills
(choose your favourite) people. And, sorry, at least
until now, I haven't been able to uplift myself to be
a right-winger, as some historians - with very hard
childhood - do. Too bad for me, poor guy.

Mr Marcuse is called to be a radical left-winger
ideologist, because he was. The American leftish
radicalism is originated in the sixties, mainly
along the lines of the ideologies of 1968. Marcuse
never distanced himself from 1968.

With my best regards,                      Sz. Zoli

> >Eva Balogh wrote:
> >
> >>I call only nazis nazis.
> >
> >You mean, however is a member of the German style National Socialist
> >Party. Is it true?
> >
> >NPA.
>
>         No, anyone who holds ideas very similar to those of the national
> socialists. Also, those who are outright antisemitic.

The latter is very problematic. There are a lot of antisemitic
people, who are not nazis. The two notions are not in coincidence.
Louis Farrakhan is said to be antisemitic. But nazi? A black guy?

                                                        Sz. Zoli

>>>> Kedves olvasok:

A ket cikket kommentarium nelkul kuldom el, hatha meg valaki nem
olvasta el.

az elso cikket egy amerikai emigrans irta, Gidai Magyarorszagon el!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

>>>> Dear Readers:
I am enclosing two Hungarian Language articles without comment.
The first article is written by an american emigre,
while Gidai lives in Hungary.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

URAMISTEN, MIVE LETTUNK?
[Kuczka Judit irasa]

[ujrakozolve a //Magyarorszagert//, V(10) szamaban]
az amerikai magyar emigracio ketheti lapjaban,
Kiado: dr. Forray Pal,
5150 Wilshire Boulevard, Suite 304. Los Angeles, CA 90036 USA
elofizetes $33.50 ket evre, $20 egy evre (nyugdijasoknak ket evre
$30, egy evre $16) Magyarorszagra (legipostaval) $68

URAMISTEN, MIVE LETTUNK?

        Ferfiaink nem elik meg nyugdijaskorukat...
        Asszonyaink nem szulnek...
        Remenytelen nok a szules utani pillanatban meggyilkoljak
ujszulottjeiket.
        Gyereklanyok acsorognak az ejszakaban a kocsisoron...
        Zsenge lanyokat toboroznak kulfoldi kuplerajokba...
        Fiatal fiuk egy tanyer levesert es ejjeli szallasert aruljak
testuket a palyaudvarokon es a Duna-parti korzon...
        Tizeneves kamaszok brutalis kegyetlenseggel meszarolnak le
oregeket, de sajat cimboraikat sem kimelik...
        Fenyes nappal egy varos szeme lattara agyonvernek egy
embert...
        Kommandosok serege lovi le az elmebeteget.
        Rendorok es vasutasok rugdosnak halalra egyetemistat...
        Kovel zuzzak be a torekeny koponyat a vonatdobalo, unatkozo,
magukra hagyott gyermekek...
        Mocskos utcakon, koszlott kapualjakban az egyik nyomorult a
masik nyomorultat megmaradt otven forintjaert uti le...
        Idegenek huzkodjak ki kertjeink zoldsegeit...masok taroljak le
faink gyumolcseit...lopjak autoinkat, kifosztjak, vikendhazainkat,
kiraboljak lakasainkat...
        Lelovik a papokat...
        Lopjak a vasuti sorompo jelzoberendezeseit, es halottakat
gorget maga elott a vonat...
        Ruhes, tetves, tudobeteg emberek fagynak meg bokrok aljan,
hidak alatt, sotet lyukakban...
        Szetszort szemetet hintaztat a szel, a kukakat turo
szerencsetlenek egy falas etel, penzze teheto uvegek utan kutatnak...
        Foldestul faljak fol az ehesek a kifosztott raktar krumplijat...
        A gyertyafeny mellett tanulo kisdiakok kizuhannak az ehsegtol
az iskolapadbol...
        Siro oregasszonyok alkudoznak a patikaban, hogy meghalt
ferjuk mar fol nem hasznalt, de meregdraga gyogyszeret
visszavalthassak...
        Teljes csaladok maradtak munka es megelhetes nelkul...mar
kikapcsoltak a gazt, a villanyt, most elarverezik a fejuk folul a tetot,
mert a bankok egyoldaluan modosithatnak szerzodeseket...
        Par szazas kistelepulesek majdnem minden munkakoru embere
munka nelkuli...
        Lakotombok teljes hazsorait fenyogerendaerdok tartjak az
osszeomlastol...

        Szulok konyorognek aprohirdetesekgben, hogy halalos beteg
gyermekuket megmenthessek...
        Nincs becsulete sem az adott szonak, sem az irasos
szerzodesnek...gengszterek fosztjak meg az embereket megtakaritott
penzuktol, hajszoljak csodbe a kenyszerbol kisvallalkozova letteket...
        Jogeros biroi iteleteket senki nem hajtat vegre...
        Kinyitott tenyeru asszonyok es gyermekek koldulnak aluljarok
koven, utcasarkokon...
        Az iskolakbol kikerultek tomegei cel, ertelem, munka nelkul
tengodnek...
        Fogyatekosokat itelnek //halalra//, orokletig szobafogsagra,
csokkentve, megvonva tamogatasukat...
        Bezart konyvesboltok, muvelodesi hazak, konyvtarak helyen
peep show-k, autoszalonok, bankok nyilnak...
        Megalazott tanarok, orvosok, muveszek, kutatok vergodnek
kiszolgaltatottan...

        Vedtelenul allunk a vilagban, mikozben fegyveres banditak
buszmegallot, hazat, templomot robbantgatnak korulottunk, de
nekunk egy kesunk sem lehet...
        Mar rokonainkkal es baratainkkal sem talalkozhatunk.. ket
buszjegyert egy kilo kenyeret kapni... megfizethetetlen a vonaljegy, a
posta, a telefon...kapcsolattartasaink igy valtak lehetetlenne...
        Beomlanak a banyak...osszedolnek az uzemcsarnokok...
rozsdasodnak a gepek...pipacsot novel a szantofold...a hazakrol hamlik
a vakolat... az egyetemi tanar fejere razuhan a mennyezet...es kosz es
mocsok mindenutt...
        Orvosok, mezogazdaszok, biologusok, tanarok es mernokok
menekulnek kulfoldre, vagy diplomaikkal havat lapatolhatnak mint
regen, egyszer...
        Doghuson elnek csaladok...
        Nyolcezren allnak sorban karacsonykor, szakado esoben,
egyetlen tal meleg levesert a Petofi Csarnok elott...
        Szazezrek vacognak futetlen szobakban...
        Ket es fel millio nyugdijasnak mar kenyerre es tejre sem futja...
        Haromszazezer a veszelyeztetett gyerekek szama...

        A betegek harminc szazaleka mar nem tudja kivaltani a
gyogyszeret...
        Adozott jovedelmunkbol csillagaszati osszegu tb-jarulekunk
ellenere fizetjuk a kulonfele orvosi ellatast, mert nem akarunk mi is
a korhaz elott megdogleni... es adozott jovedelmunkbol tanittatjuk -
mig birjuk - a gyermekeinket... es fizetjuk a biztositasokat, de
penzunkbol sem kifosztott lakasunkra, sem osszetort, ellopott
autoinkra, sem aszaly es belviz sujtotta vetesunkre nem futja...es mar
riogatnak: befizetesunk a nyugdijra sem lesz eleg, es azt mondjak,
annyit kapunk majd vegigdolgozott, tonkretett eletunk utan,
amennyit mi, ismet csak adozott jovedelmunkbol megtakaritunk
magunknak... es dolgozhatunk, mig bele nem halunk, mert hiszen
Europaban is sokaig dolgoznak az emberek.
        Folszamoljak a korhazakat, iskolakat, szinhazakat, muvelodesi
hazakat, szelnek eresztik a tanitokat, orvosokat, apolonoket,
kutatokat, konyvkiadok dolgozoit, nincs szukseg rajuk sem...
        Es iszunk, kabitoszerezunk, es gyilkoljuk magunkat, ha mar
nem meg tovabb.

        Es mindez meg nem eleg.

        Megfelemlitve, megzsarolva elunk, mert van meg
munkahelyunk, hat hallgatunk. Es mert meg ki tudjuk fizetni a
szamlainkat, hat ehezunk... es lemondtunk mar mindenrol: ujsagrol,
konyvrol, szinhazrol es mozirol... mar csak a puszta eletunk maradt.
Es teljesen magunkra maradtunk.
        Es veletlenul se szolalunk meg, mert nem akarjuk, hogy azonnal
nacionalistanak, sovinisztanak, fasisztanak, antiszemitanak kialtsanak
ki... mert buntetlenul vadolhatnak es belyegezhetnek meg...

        De epul es szepul az orszag.

        Csillogo marvany- es uvegpalotakat emelnek az egyre
szaporodo bankok, a biztositok, a tarsadalombiztositas, a kulfoldi
uzletemberek, a zavarosban halaszo vallalkozok...
        Business centerek tarkitjak utjaink szelet... (s meg az sem baj,
ha mellettuk 50-100-150 eve allo, soha nem tatarozott hazak -
emberek lakasai - omlanak ossze, mint a kartyavar... hadd hulljon a
fergese..)
        Tobb tizmillios autocsodak elol ugrandozunk, hogy a millionyi
katyu szennyet ne rank froccsentsek...
        Es nezzuk a teve reklamjait, hogy ez vagy az az autocsoda mar
igencsak olcso, egymillio kilencszazezerert kaphato, meg hogy
etkezzunk egeszsegesen, koleszterinmentes etolajjal fozzunk - de mar
a zsirra se futja...
        Azt mondja a nagyobb kormanyzopart (volt) alelnoke a
radioban, hogy o a birodalmat epitgeti... igy: birodalmat... es hogy
tobb mint egymilliarddal tamogatta a partjat...
        Es olajgate... es vam- meg adocsalasok... buntetlenul vagy
rohejes buntetessel...
        Uj mediamogulok es sajtomonopoliumok...
        Magankastelyok a maganositott tiszta levegon...
        Operabalok, Vallalkozok Balja, belterjes exkluziv rongyrazasok
egyenes adasban a televizioban, vakulj magyar, nezd az elelmeseket
akik idoben //tudtak valtani//...
        Es tudjuk, a mi penzunkbol buliznak egy amerikai film
forgatasanak urugyen, mikozben ingyen adtak el a varost, mert
hiszen minden elado.. de csak mert mi kimaradtunk belole, hat ne
tiltakozzunk, hogy herdaljak a penzunket... egy orszag kukkolhatja a
gazdagok es a hatalom penzunkbol rendezett mulatsagait, fektelen,
gatlastalan tobzodasat.
        Millios havi fizetesek...
        Magantestorsegek es fegyveresek vedik a verunkon
hizottakat...
        Ejszakai bankkifizetesek a haveroknak a csod elotti
pillanatban...

        Szamolatlan milliok vegkielegitesekre...
        A draga telkeken allo korhazakra, iskolakra, szinhazakra is
szemet vetett mar valaki...
        Es nem akad szinte egyetlen bolt sem, amelynek a feliratat
erthetnenk is... idegenek lettunk sajat honunkban...
        Ugyvedek segitsegevel fosztjak ki a karpotoltakat...
        A parlament urai - kepviseloink! - megszavazzak sajat
javadalmaztatasuk harminc szazalekos emeleset ... es a Fovarosi
Onkormanyzatban arrol folyik a vita, ki melyik igazgatotanacsban
kapjon helyet - es penzt - termeszetesen...
        A mi bereink pedig rohamosan csokkennek, es evrol evre
kevesebbet ernek a szaguldo inflacioban...
        A mindent elborito nyomor a tarsadalom vedtelenjeit erinti
elsosorban: a gyerekeket, az oregeket es a fogyatekosokat. Ok azok,
akik itt, ebben az orszagban nem szamitanak, nekik meg es mar
fizetnunk kellene, el kellene tudnunk tartani oket emberhez melto
modon, de - mint mondjak - az orszag nehez helyzeteben nem
engedhetjuk meg azt a luxust, hogy hasznot nem termelokkel
foglalatoskodjunk.

        A haboru utan a romokbol ket kezzel kapartak ki az orszagot es
epitettek ujja a ma haszontalannak tartott milliok, a kokemeny terror
es diktatura idejen, erejuk vegso megfeszitesevel, munkaerejuk
vegso kizsigerelesevel, mikozben szultek, mert torveny kotelezte ra
oket. Es eheztek a gyerekeikkel egyutt. Szandekosan tartottak
alacsonyan a bereket, mert jo Rakosi elvtarsunk szerint allampolgari
jogon jar majd lakas, iskola es orvosi ellatas. Ma mar semmi nem jar
allampolgari jogon, de a berek ma is szandekosan alacsonyak, mert
csak nyomorgo, vegetalasszintre kenyszeritett, tudatlan milliokat
lehet felelemben tartani, csak beloluk lehet ismet roghoz kotott
rabszolgakat csinalni. (Menj, keress munkat masutt az orszagban -
mondjak-, de tudjak, ez lehetetlen, hisz ki venne meg az elvandorlo
lakasat a katsztrofa sujtotta, munkanelkuliseggel megvert
orszagreszekben?)
        Nemzedekek epitettek fel ezt az orszagot. Emlekeznek? A
penztelenseg es az epitkezes gyorsitasa miatt eronkon felul
kotelezoen jegyeztettek bekekolcsonoket... Emlekeznek meg ugye, az
//onkentes// tarsadalmi munkakra kenyszeritett orszagra, ahol meg a
gyerekeknek is dolgozniuk kellett? Emlekeznek a kulonfele
partkongresszusok es mindenfele jubileumok alkalmabol
meghirdetett ingyenes //kommunista muszakokra// es
//felajanlasokra//? //Tied az orszag, magadnak epited// - mondtak, de ezt
csak mi felejtsuk el? Ennyire nem a mienk ez az orszag?
        Es miert csak mi emlekezzunk a ket urra a vadkapitalizmus
idejebol, akik valami olyasmit irtak: ahhoz hogy a tokes extraprofitra
tehessen szert, a vegsokig ki kell zsakmanyolnia a munkast. Ehhez
harom dolgot kell biztositania: lakast, ahol a munkas megpihenhet..
vallami etket, hogy munkaereje ne csokkenjen. es valami gonc is
kell, hogy mezitlenseget a robotban eltakarhassa...
        Hozzajarulasunk es beleegyezuesunk nelkul adjak el ma
bagoert kozos munkank eredmenyet ugyanazok, akik az orszagot az
adossagcsapdaba hajszoltak, s vandorol kulfoldi bankokba
maganszamlakra es kulfoldi zsebebe a hozadek.. Pedig a kozos
vagyonbol a lenezett millioknak is jar, hisz mi epitettuk ezt az
orszagot, mi akiket ezerszer alaztak meg, ezerszer toroltak meg
rajtunk, ha a fejunket epphogy folemeltuk, mert mi itt voltunk,
mikozben az eladok - mert tehettek - kulfoldon tanultak, es dogoztak
vagy eltek a kivetelezettek eletet.
        Kulfoldieknek adjak el nemzeti vagyonunkat, s mert e
kulfoldnek tartozunk, azonnal vissza is adjuk a beszedett penzt...
        Es nekunk mivel tartoznak, egyetlen es megismetelhetetlen
eletunkert? A kiserletekert, amelyeket rajtunk vegeztek, es
vegeznek?

        Milyen orszagban elunk, Uramisten, ahol az elso szabadon
valasztott kormany miniszterelnoket a vesztesek nyugati
tamogatoikkal a hatterben titkos paktumra kenyszerithetik..
Milyenben, Istenem, ahol a miniszterelnokot a kisebb koalicios
partner megzsarolhatja...?

        Senki, egyetlen part kepviselo, allami vezeto, munkaltato nem
kapott jogot arra, hogy emberek szaezreit a veso remenytelensegbe,
kilatastatlansagba hajszolja. Senki nem kapott jogot arra, hogy az
alkotmanyban biztositott jogunkat, a munkat, elvegye tolunk... senki
nem kapott jogot arra, hogy halalba hajszolja a ketsegbeesetteket.
        A penz es hatalom birtoklasa nem jogosit fel senkit masok
megalazasara, kulonoskeppen nem a vedtelenek meggyalazasara.
Milyen melysegesen mely megvetessel tudjak mondani partoktol
fuggetlenul az armanyosan hatalomban levok: //vesztesekkel nem
lehet csatat nyerni//, meg hogy //a magyar tarsadalomnak a kreativ
emberekre kell tamaszkodnia, akik nem Tiborc csapataba tartoznak//,
a //szegenyek irigysegerol// szonokolnak... a fel orszagnyi
elszegenyedettrol - Tiborc csapatarol-, a valasztokrol beszelnek
undorkodva...

        Az alkotmany kimondja: [ezert fogjak most megvaltoztatni!!! - a
szerk] mindenkinek joga van a munkahoz... [az ujban nem lesz benne]
        Es kimondja mindenkinek joga van a szocialis biztonsaghoz... [az
ujban nem lesz benne]
        Es azt is kimondja: mindenkinek joga van oregseg, betegseg,
arvasag, onhibajukon kivul bekovetkezett munkanelkuliseg eseten a
megelhetesukhoz szukseges ellatashoz...[az ujban nem lesz benne]
        Es kimondja: mindenkine joga van a muvelodeshez...[az ujban
nem lesz benne]
        Es kimondja: minden embernek joga van az elethez es az
emberi meltosaghoz...[az ujban nem lesz benne]
        Es kimondja: hogy minden gyermeknek joga van vedelemre es
gondoskodasra, amely megfelelo szellemi, testi es erkolcsi
fejlodesehez szukseges...[az ujban nem lesz benne]
        Es kimondja: hogy sinkit nem lehet embertelen, megalazo
elbanasnak alavetni...[az ujban az lesz benne, hogy csak a magyart
lehet]
        Es kimondja: az allamnak kotelessege intezkedeseket hozni az
eselyegyenlotlensegek megszuntetesere. [az uj nem fogja kimondani]
        Es kimondja: a torveny teljes szigoraval kell eljarni es buntetni
kell azt, aki embereket hatranyosan megkulonboztet. [a uj csak
azokkal lesz szigoru, akik a masokat masnak tartjak]

        Mert ne merje senki azt mondani, [mert akkor gonc
gyulolettorvenye sujtja] hogy az ehhalalhoz sok, megelheteshez keves
nyugdij szocialis biztonsagot jelent ... ne merje senki mondani, hogy
az elnyomoritott, utcara kirakott csaladok gyermekei vedettek es a
szedelgo, ehezo gyerekek testi, az iskolabol kiszorulok szellemi es a
totalis erkolcsi fertobe taszitottak erkolcsi fejlodese biztositott... es
senki ne merje azt mondani, hogy nem megalazo eljaras szocialis
segelyekert kuncsorogni, egyetlen tal levesert sorban allani vagy
ingyenes orvosi ellatast biztosito szegenysegi bizonyitvanyert
koldulni.

        Ne merje senki azt mondani, hogy nem embertelen elvenni a
munkahoz valo jogot... hogy emberhez melto a szemettelepre
szamuzott csaladok elete... senki ne merje azt mondani, hogy nem
tipornak bele az emberi meltosagba, amikor csemegeznek a
munkavallalok kozott: te ferfi vagy, te no, te fiatal, te oreg, hat nem
kellesz... Senki ne merje mondani, hogy nem embertelen, amikor
hajlektalanok ezrei koszalnak az utcakon... es hogy nem embertelen,
amit az oregeinkkel, a gyerekeinkkel es a fogyatekosainkkal tesznek..
[Ne merje, mert akkor patkanyvigyorral viszik bortonbe
//gyuloletkeltesert//]

        Nem hiszem, hogy ok kevesebbet ernek, mint a milliardos
partvezerek, a bankarok, csalafinta vallalkozoink vagy sztarnak
kikialtott ujsagiroink...
        Hol vannk a pl. Lichtenstein alkotmanyos berendezkedeserol
oly pontosan eligazito alkotmanyjogaszok, akik felszolalnanak a
vedtelen milliok alkotmanyos jogainak vedelmeben, es hol vannak az
ugyvedek, akik vallalnak ugyuket a birosagokon, es hol vannak a
birok, akik soron kivul targyalnak a kisemmizettek pereit, es hol a
problemaerzekeny ujsagirok, radiosok es tevesek, akik lelepleznek
megnyomoritasunk folyamatat, es - ki merem mondani a szot- a nep
melle allnanaak.. es miert nem szolal meg a Demokratikus Charta
sem, hisz itt egy egesz orszag lett egyszerre mas..

        Magunkra maradtunk hat mi, tizmillionyian. Csak magunkra
szamithatunk. Nem szabad felnunk. Mindenkit nem lehet
kilakoltatni. Mindenkit nem lehet bebortonozni. Mindenkit nem
lehet kerekbe torni, lo farkahoz kotni, folnegyelni. Mindenkit nem
lehet birosag ele allitani sem.

        Ki kell mondanunk vegre:

        Mar nincs mirol lemondanunk!
        Ennyi volt.
        Eleg volt.
        Nincs tovabb!

[Aki most azt gondolja, hogy //Tiborc panasza// valami laikus,
tarsadalmi-gazdasagi problemakhoz nem erto szemely sopankodasa
csupan, az olvassa el az alabbi elemzest is, amely Dr. Gidai Erzsebet
kozgazdasz professzor szakerto irasa]

=
SZEP KILATASOK
(Magyar Forum junius 6.)

A magyar lakossag tobb mint otven szazaleka el a letminimum
szintjen, vagy az alatt. Egy negytagu csaladnak havonta 90-95 ezer
Ft-ra van szuksege letfenntartasahoz. Ha a szulok mostani netto 26-
27.000 Ft atlagbert visznek haza, a csaladi potlekot is hozzaszamolva,
meg legalabb 30 ezer Ft hianyzik a megelheteshez, aki pedig csupan
a 14.500 Ft minimalberrel rendelkezik, meg a letminimum felehez
sem jut havonta. A magyar csaladok tobb mint fele felelte
penztartalekat, felretenni nem tud, napi megelhetesi gondokkal kuzd.

A kozel 2 millio nyugdijas tobb mint 40 szazaleka el a biologiai
letfenntartas szintjen, s a Vilagbank altal megszabott 9600 Ft-os
minimalnyugdijbol eldontheti, gyogyszert vesz-e, egy keveske
elelmiszert vagy a lakasrezsijet fizeti ki. Rohamosan no az
elszegenyedes, s vele a kilatastalansag. Az orszag erkolcsileg leepul.
Az idegen erdekeket kiszolgalo, dinasztikus kormanyzat pedig
minden igyekezetevel azon van, hogy minel elobb befejezze a
nemzeti vagyon elkotyavetyeleset es kozben lehetoleg minel tobbet
rakjon a sajat zsebebe. A kepviselok pedig, beleertve az ellenzekinek
kikialtott oldalt is, elszakadva a szocialis erzekenysegtol, minden
igyekezetukkel kapaszkodnak a biztos megelhetest nyujto szekukhoz.
Ebben tokeletes az egyetertes.

Az 1994-es valasztas ota Magyarorszagon csaknem 25%-kal csokkent
a realber, a tenyleges munkanelkuliek szama tullepett az 1 million, a
csod szelere taszitottak az egeszsegugyet es a kozoktatast,
ugrasszeruen megnott a belso eladosodas merteke. Viragzik a
spekulativ penzmozgatas es a feketegazdasag, s ekkor, e gazdasagi
romhalmazon a kormanyzat bejelenti a 20 szazalekosra csokkeno
inflaciot a tavalyi, tobb mint 30 szazalekoshoz kepest. Majd gyorsan
modositja, mondvan, hogy ez azert megsem tarthato.

Nem kell ahhoz kulonlegesen magas vegzettseg, hogy kiszamoljuk: a
forint folyamatos leertekelese, a csillagos egig emelkedo
elelmiszerarak, az energiaarak tovabbi, ugrasszeru novekedese, az
altalanos arszinvonal-emelkedes az iden 28-30 szazalek koruli
inflaciot fog eredmenyezni. Penzugyileg, gazdasagilag tarthatatlan
allapot ez, s ha mar befejezodik a nemzeti vagyon felszamolasa, az
adossag meg tovabb no, akkor bekovetkezik a penzugyi osszeomlas, s
nincs az az Europai Unio, amelyik ezen segitene. (Nem is all
szandekaban.)

Pedig az orszag kirablasa, elszegenyitese varhato volt mar 1982-ben
is, amikor Magyarorszag belepett a Nemzetkozi Valutaalapba es a
Vilagbankba. Peldak mutatjak, hogy ahova ez a ket penzugyi
szervezet betette a labat, ott fu sem no. Anarchia, gazdasagi leepules
es elszegenyedes kovetkezik be.

A diktatumok kiszolgaloi cserebe mindenutt hatalmat, a szabadrablas
jogat kaptak, hogy ezzel is megtisztitsak az utat egy uj nepvandorlas
elott, amit az EU-hoz valo csatolasunk majd teljes mertekben biztosit.
S a naiv, tudatlan nep a napi agymosasok kovetkezteben meg el is
hiszi, hogy kifizetodo a brusszeli kozpontu birodalom csatlosanak
lenni! Nem veszi eszre, mert a felrevezeto tomegkommunikacio
mellett nem jut el hozza a veszkialtas, hogy vigyazz, a csapdat mar
elokeszitettek. Mert mit is jelent valojaban az EU-hoz valo
csatlakozasunk? Nemzeti identitasunk feladasat, nemzeti erdekeink
elveszteset, a mar erosen megromlott anyanyelvunk angolositasat, a
kivalo lehetosegeket hordozo mezogazdasagunk, elelmiszeriparunk
teljes feladasat, idegen burokratak eltartasat, a birodalom fejlett
orszagaiban feleslegesse valo munkaero hozzank valo iranyitasat, az
eladhatatlan termekek itthoni piacra teriteset. S mindezek fejeben
fizethetjuk az uj intezmenyrendszer sok milliard dollart kitevo
koltsegeit, hordozhatjuk negyedik es otodik osztalyba soroltatasunk
minden rank nehezedo terhet. S ha egyszer ismet megerosodik -
mert igy lesz! - az Orosz Birodalom, akkor Magyarorszagot konckent
ismet oda lehet vetni, ha meg egyaltalan letezik ez az egyharmadnyi
prszag.

A maastrichti szerzodest kovetoen egyre tagul az Uniot biralok, sot
ellenzok kore, hiszen az EU elburokratizalodasa, az eros kozponti
iranyitas, a politikai es gazdasagi centralizacio korlatozza a nemzeti
kormanyok cselekvokepesseget, ami a korabbi feszultsegek
kielezodesevel valsaghoz vezethet. De talan a legfajdalmasabb
kovetkezmeny a nemzeti identitas serulese.

Kelet-Europa a maga szazmillios nepessegevel, elmaradott iparaval,
ugyanakkor jelentos agrarpotencialjaval megemeszthetetlen falat az
EU szamara. Nincs senki, aki az ipari felzarkoztatas koltsegeit fedezni
tudna, illetve felvallalna a kozep-europai agrarexport lenyeges
novekedesebol szarmazo tarsadalmi konfliktusokat.

Magyarorszag szamara az Uniohoz torteno csatolassal a gazdasagi
tehertetelek, anyagi aldozatok novekedese mellett hosszu tavra
elvesz a remeny, hogy tortenelmi hataraink a nemzetkozi politika
szinteren felulvizsgalatra kerulhetnek.

Az Unioval szemben a megoldast az jelenthetne, ha az orszag
gazdasagi nagytakaritassal rendbetenne magat, megelhetesi
biztonsagot nyujtana nepessege valamennyi retegenek, s elsosorban
a Karpat-medenceben - es tagabban Kelet-Europaban - rakna le az
uj nemzetkozi kiegyezes alapjait.

Gidai Erzsebet
> ========================================================================

Hugh Agnew was interested in the recipe of gulyas, which he very rightly
described as a soup. Here is George Lang's recipe:

2 medium-sized onions
2 tablespoons lard
1 1/2 pounds beef chuck or round, cut to 3/4-inch cubes
1 garlic clove
pinch of caraway seeds
salt
2 tablespoons "Noble Rose" paprika
1 medium-sized ripe tomato
2 green frying or Italian peppers
1 pound potatoes
Little Dumplings

1. Peel onions and chop into coarse pieces. Metl lard in a heavy 6- to
8-quart Dutch overn. Saute onions in lard. Heat should be low in order not
to brown the onions.

2. When onions become glossy, add beef. Stir so that during this part of the
process, which should last for about 10 minutes, the meat will be sauteed
with the onions.

3. Meanwhile, chop and crush the garlic with the caraway seeds and a little
salt; use the flat side of a heavy knife.

4. Take kettle from heat. Stir in paprika and the garlic mixture. Stir
rapidly with a wooden spoon. Immediately after paprika is absorbed, add 2
1/2 quarts *warm* water. (Cold water toughens meat if you add it while the
meat is frying.)

5. Replace covered kettle over heat and cook for about 1 hour.

6. While the braising is going on, peel the tomato, then cut into 1-inch
pices. Core green peppers and slice into rings. Peel potatoes and cut into
3/4 inch dice.

7. After meat has been braised for about 1 hour (the time depends on the cut
of the meat), add the cut-up tomatoe and green peppers and enough water to
give a soup consistency. Add a little salt. Simmer slowly for another 30
minutes.

8. Add potatoes, and cook the gulyas till done. Adjust salt. Add hot cherry
pepper pods if you want to make the stew pricy hot.

9. Cook the dumplings in the stew.

[You can make a very good gulyas without all that fuss, simply in a pressure
cooker. The ingredients are the same (but I leave out the caraway seeds).
After sauteeing the onions and browning the beef cubes I add the rest of the
ingredients with the exception of the green peppers, cover it with water and
cook it under pressure for fifteen minutes. Cool it under cold water, add
green pepper and cook slowly for another 10 minutes or so. Delicious.]


As for szekelygulyas. Here is again George Lang's recipe:

1 large onion, peeled and chopped
1/8 pound lard
1 1/2 pounds lean pork, diced
1 tablespoon paprika
2 tablespoons tomato puree
2 pounds sauerkraut
1/2 teaspoon caraway seeds
salt
1/2 cup sour cream

1. Wilt onion in lard in a heavy Dutch oven. Add pork, mix well, and cook
covered for 5 minutes.

2. Add paprika, then the tomato puree; mix well. Add just enough water to
cover everything. Cook over verylow heat till meat is almost done.

3. Squeeze sauerkraut well. Add it to the meat with the caraway seeds, and
cook for another 10 to 15 minutes. Salt should be added only at this point
if you think, after tasting it, that it is needed.

4. Spoon sour cream on top, and serve.

[Some people wash the sauerkraut because otherwise it might be too tart.]

        So, Hugh, now you can make your favorite Czech dish--segedinsky gulas.

        Eva Balogh

I meant NOT that women are undersirable, but rather others that I would
not like to see my family or friends to observe.

On Thu, 18 Jul 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:

> At 10:02 AM 7/18/96 -0400, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
>
> >Turkish baths...eh???
> >Well perhaps 30 years ago it was fine to visit them...but I would stay
> >away from them...If you want osme mineral hot springs (radiactive too)
> >try one of the hotels like Gellert or the Acquincum off Margit Island on
> >the Buda side...
> >
> >Turkish baths have deteriorated in BP both in the type of people and the
> >buildings...they allow both sexes to enter.
>
> What do you mean by deterioration and "type of people"?  Is allowing both
> sexes to enter a deterioration?  Or are you hinting at something else?  Just
> spit it out, will ya?
>
> Joe Szalai
>

At 11:28 AM 7/18/96 -0400, Zoli Szekely wrote:

>And not, I do not like radicalism, because it is a
>jump into the un-known and also hurts/oppresses/kills
>(choose your favourite) people. And, sorry, at least
>until now, I haven't been able to uplift myself to be
>a right-winger, as some historians - with very hard
>childhood - do. Too bad for me, poor guy.

        Me, a right-winger? You must be either out of your mind or you are
ignorant.

        Eva Balogh

Come on Zoli, I have to agree with Eva Balogh...
The essence of the story is that if were in a similar situation
in hungary (or for that matter most anywhere else) you would have
NEVER made it.  That is the difference between America (Canada Inlcuded)
and most other nations in the world. It has to do with opportunity.
I congratulate Eva for making it!  Without the doles of this world....
Peter Soltesz

In article >,
ANDREW ROZSA > wrote:
>On Wed, 17 Jul 1996 06:55:25 GMT,  (AND Books)
>wrote:
>
>>Italian Autodidact ) wrote:
>>
>>: Hi, I'm posting this article from Italy.
>>
>>: I've just started learning  Hungarian as an auotdidact
>>: and I would like someone in this Newsgroup to help me
>>: with the following:
>>
>>: Sajnos kave nincs / sajnos kavet nincs
>
>
>Ladies and Gentlemen:
>
>I think we can call the mission accomplished: 'achilles' must be (by
>now) thoroughly confused.
>
>Congratulations to us all for a job well done! :-))))
>
>Ci vediamo,
>
>Rozsa Bandi

To dismiss confusion:
The good version of the two is 'Sajnos kave nincs', and it means 'Unfortunately
there is no coffee'
GK

At 11:28 AM 7/18/96 -0400, Zoltan Szekely wrote:

>Dear Regina,
>
>I did not intend to cause you any pain, whatsoever,
>by calling you dear. I'm really, really sorry about
>that. I call ladies dear until they don't prove the
>opposite. Just take it easy, please.

And what do you call 'gentlmen' until they don't prove the opposite?  Or are
your terms of endearment reserved only for the 'weaker sex'?

Joe Szalai

Sorry, I meant (and should have said) it is a common dish in Slovakia.
Hugh said he met it in Prague and wondered if it is Hungarian.  Since I
had heard that it was not known in Slovakia as a Hungarian dish (as e.g.
gulas is, or langos, or most obviously halazlai (spelling?  the great
fish soup).  Therefore it seemed most likely that it came to Prague from
Slovakia.  I didn't actually mean that Hungarians don't make it.  Yes,
careless writing!  (But don't we commonly say, e.g. "Americans speak
English" WITHOUT implying that no one else speaks it?  Is this another
example of supersensitivity in Central Europe about every nuance of
ethnic terms?  THis isn't meant as snide, so please don't anyone take
offence.)


As far as the unexplained name goes, there must be some original
connection but it may be as far off as calling our hotdogs wiener or
frankfurter, or even less probable, our hamburger from Wien, Frankfurt,
or Hamburg.

Folk dances too, besides the music, seem to be a common tradition very
far back, and they borrowed from elsewhere in common too.  Didn't Balint
Balassa dance the odzemok in Bratislava Castle ?



On Thu, 18 Jul 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:

> At 11:47 PM 7/17/96 -0700, Norma Rudinsky wrote:
>
> >Szegedinsky gulas is a very common (and excellent) Slovak dish, made as
> >Hugh describes (and usually served with halusky as the side starchy dish
> >to absorb the creamy sauce).
>
>         I have the feeling that it is a common Hungarian-Slovak dish, simply
> because they lived in one country for so long. Your claim that it is a
> Slovak dish reminds me of something. One day I was listening to the radio in
> my car somewhere in Upper New York State and there was a program on Slovak
> folksongs. And what do I hear? All those "Hungarian" folksongs we all used
> to sing. These tunes had Slovak as well as Hungarian lyrics.
>
> >I had heard that it was not a Hungarian
> >dish and no one I've known has ever been able to explain why it is named
> >for the city of Szegedin.
>
>         It is hard to believe that in Slovak it is called segendinsky gulyas
> and yet it is not also a Hungarian dish.
>
>         Eva Balogh
>

Eva wrote:

>In case that "herself" got there by design, I would like to see how
>possibly my ideas have anything to do with communism. A far cry from it.
>I have known Bela Kiraly personally for at least thirty years. I worked
>with him as a historian and as a fellow member of the American Association
>of Hungarian History. I don't think that he was a communist, and I don't
>think that he was a nazi.

None of them eh? Like you! Ok. Let's see the facts: Bela Kiraly was a
lieutenant in Horty's regime. You have called Horty's regime nazi once
before. If that does not make him a nazi, as your logic dictates, than
let's go further in time. Kiraly was also a captain in Ferenc Szalasi's
regime, which you called many times nazi. And how about the communist
side of the story? Kiraly became a brigadier general in Matyas Rakosi's
army and in an another flip-flop he became a general in Imre Nagy's re-
volutionary forces. And of course he held a position as colonel general in
Arpad Goncz's establishment as well. And a real reason why you claim to
be so close politically to him is an easy question: He was a representative
in the House for the SZ.D.Sz. :-)
You mentioned, whoever accepts nazi ideas, nazi himself as well. That would
put Kiraly in an awkward position. In March 10 1945 in the Hungarian "Kozlony"
there was an article about Bela Kiraly who just received a decoration from
the hands of the Arrow Cross leader, fuhrer Szalasi. (Nemzetvezeto that is)

And we also know, that before 1956 only  those were able to  retain  any
positions in student organizations, who were trustable by the comrades.
By the way were you active in that time politically ? :-)

So I would be interested to know, which part of Kiraly's past you accept?
That way according to your own logic, I can see you in your proper place.:-)

>You are getting very close to libel, my fellow. I told you, come out
>with it! Tell the world that I wrote to the Department of Energy and the
>Argonne National Laboratory to make them fire you!!!

Patient Eva, Patient. I did not say, that you pushed the return key, but
your actions are loud and clear. Libel? Go ahead sue me! That would be
much more honest than bunching up an someone, because of his political
views and cowardly report him to the Government.

>Especially since I didn't even know that the Department of Energy had
>anything to do with the Argonne National Laboratory, and it was only a
>week before your quitting your job that I learned through this list that
>your employer is the Argonne National Laboratory. Go ahead! Give the
>necessary proof!

Baloney! Elek and Farkas long before published where I worked. But why
are you so upset? You don't like to be on hot roof? That is what you
give to others, meanwhile you play tolerant.

>>Whoever trying to twist the meaning  of  a freedom fight, happened in
>>1956.

>You are an idiot, like Andras Szucs, and unfortunately, stupidity cannot
>be helped.

Come, come...calling names? What about your tolerance Eva? You wrote
this:

>Oh, I admit. It was an "icipici szabadsagharc," and hardly anyone
>calls it that.

Does it make you an "icipici"-t idiot?

>Wow, you mean there are lot's of arab nazis running around, hating each
>other as well ? :-)

>Don't play the innocent, please!

Why, what did you mean by the word "antisemitism" ? Hate against jews? Do
you say that there is no hatred because of the Arab-Israeli conflict?
Or you meant antisemitism or hatred against semites? Are the Arabs semites?

So, Don't play stupid, please!

>Add to this, people who think that Szalasi was the saviour of Hungary.

And add to this who served him up to rank of captain? :-)

>I have never heard of Tibor Hernadi, but I am always suspicious of
>books which title is "The True History of This and That.

His name is better known among the historians, than yours. At least he wrote
a book. :-) And you better get used to the word "True" after so many years
of lying! I did not meant the word "Pravda" of course!

>" As for Mr. Puski, I have the feeling that Mr. Puski is not exactly a
>moderate liberal.

Oh my..whoever gives equal chances to the political spectrum, is not
exactly a moderate liberal? What the heck "liberal" means in your twisted
mind?

>You mean Hernadi not only a nazi, but member of the MIEP.as well ?

>I don't claim anything of the sort, I have never heard of Mr.
>Hernadi, and I have no idea of his party affiliation. I was talking about a
>young man on the Forum who is a MIEP member and who mentioned about the
>Soviet war mashine's readiness to attack Germany.

Come now. Hernadi mentions the same thing in his book also.  Or you mean
whoever a member of the party - MIEP., is a nazi as well ? Don't you stretch
reality  a little?

>The whole thing is ridiculous, of course. The Soviet Union's military
>establishment was devastated by Stalin, and, as the events of the future
>showed, they were uncapable to defending their own country, let alone
>attacking anyone. Where was that famous war machine? Oh, yes, I forgot!
>According to the young MIEP members, thousands of planes burned up, while
>facing West! In a row!

Besides Hernadi or the nazi MIEP. members, I would recite a little from a
British historian, Vivian Bird, who also himself wrote more books, than
you. I mean more than nothing! :-)

The brief Russo-Finnish war confirmed that the Soviet harbored no scruples
relative to aggressively extending their territory. By their actions they
clearly conveyed that they were not at all concerned with German interests
or what Germany or the world thought. Next, the Baltic states of Lithuania,
Estonia and Latvia were annexed in a sudden Soviet move. This despite the
traditional links of these small countries to Germany.

Moscow's aggression was to continue during 1940, as the Soviets annexed the
Romanian provinces of Bukovina and Bessarabia. They were now dangerously close
to the Romanian oil fields at Ploesti, the principal source of German oil
supplies. As a counter measure German troops were dispatched to Romania's
borders. And Germany entered into an alliance with that country as well as
with Bulgaria and Hungary-countries also feeling threatened by Soviet
expansionist aims.

In 1941 Russia showed renewed interest in Yugoslavia, and plotted to install
a pro-Soviet Government after ousting one friendly to Germany. Hitler reacted
with speed, launching the operation known as Vergeltung (Retaliation) and
quickly occupied the whole of Yugoslavia.

Now - available evidence of Soviet aggressive intentions toward Europe in 1940-
1941 confirms that large concentrations of Soviet troops were aligned along
the entire border with the West. German secret service reports to Field Marshal
Keitel at the high command concluded that, from 1940 to the beginning of 1941,
six German border divisions faced no fewer than 207 Soviet divisions and 63
motorized brigades. However, Soviet archives now reveal the actual Red Army
frontal strength at 257 divisions, 88 of which were being readied foe westward
deployment.

When Operation Barbarossa was launched June 22, Wermacht ground strength
consisted of 157 infantry and 80 Panzer divisions. Hitler had allocated
3,050,000 men, 75% of his field strength, to this momentous task. From their
staging areas, Finland and Romania moved into battle as "Barbarossa" commenced.

Ranged against 13,300 Soviet aircraft were 2,510 Luftwaffe planes. According to
the latest figures the Soviet had 14,700 tanks ready for action against
3,648 on
the German side.

Most astounding was the Soviet superiority in combat-ready artillery  pieces;
115,900 as against Germany's 7,146. And of course the Red Army was the world's
largest military machine.

So, Dear Eva, would you call this British historian nazi also? :-)

>>So please let me know if you think, that Hernadi is a nazi and Puski also
>>a nazi letting such books into his store?!

>I wonder.


Does it mean YES? ;-)


>>Because you just recently communicated an inside mole at Argonne, spreading
>>false accusations about my boss.

>Yes, I approached a fellow Hungarian who works at Argonne National
>Laboratory and I asked him to find out the truth about your firing.

In other word you were snooping after me?

>Considering that you and your friends were accusing people, including me,
>of being behind that firing, I had every right to try to find out the
>truth.

Please do not lie to this list. Nobody accused you of that before you
approached ANL. Prove that I in any form or shape did just that! You
wanted to know how far the case advanced, that is all!

>My contact (whose name I received from another Forum correspondent)
>told me that, yes, you were in trouble over the use of the computer
>for private use and that your boss was also fired because he didn't
>stop your activities.
>If Istvan N. felt compelled to tell you that I inquired about you,
>that's fine with me. I have absolutely nothing to hide.

Istvan N. did not tell me anything. I have learned about you right from
Argonne. You were spreading your false info around HIX. using your
cronies.  You and your band not only spread garbage about me, but
attacked an innocent man in this case, my boss, who had not either the
faintest idea of what is going on.

>>You fed this information to Gabor Fencsik, who under false name and a
>>rented re mailer address spreaded hatred on Forum.

>I certainly shared this information with those people who were
>directly or indirectly accused by you and your friends of the evil deed:
>Gabor Elek, Gabor Farkas, Andras Kornai, and Gabor Fencsik. Again, I don't
>think that I did anything which was apprehensible.

Sure not! You knew that Fencsik is using a remailer to spread every word
you obtained from Istvan N.
That is the very place, that has a Whistle Blower Hot line. In other world
the "RAT"-channel.
Ladies and Gentleman of this list. Eva Balogh gets involved in a conspiracy
against someone with different political views. Feeds false in formations to
her cronies, who poses as "Karesz" from  through a re-
mailer as  and Eva thinks that is ok. No more comment on this!

>I had every right to inquire about the truth, since you told the
>whole world about "those rats." Of course, openly you didn't accuse anyone
>but there were enough insinuations to besmearch the names of several people
>associated with the Forum, past and present, including mine.

Wait a moment. Did not you wrote just few lines above this?

>Considering that you and your friends were accusing people, including me,
>of being behind that firing, I had every right to try to find out the
>truth.

So I ask you again to show the very proof of it!


>All your right-wing friends, and even those, who don't sympathize with
>your world view, were horrified at the idea that anyone could do such
>an awful thing as to make you lose your job. Meanwhile, you didn't offer
>a shred of evidence.

Trust me I did! Not to you of course, for different reasons.

1; You know more about than I do in this stage of the case.
2; I do not trust you in the middle of an ongoing quest for the RATSs.

And as I mentioned, in due time I reveal what I collected. Stay put meanwhile
in your boots. :-)

>People were spending weeks at guessing games: who could it be? Don't you
>think that under these circumstances the poor victims have some rights too?

You mean I told everybody to be childish?

>Like trying to find out the truth? Unfortunately, we still don't know the
>truth, while you go on and on with your accusations.

What accusations? That Farkas and Elek were snooping after me? Was it not
true? There are poof in the HIX. archive. Just look them up.

Or that you were snooping after me? You just acknowledged this yourself.
So what is the matter with you?

>The latest announcement on your part was that you know who the culprit/
>culprits is/are, and X. and Y. also know who they are. And when someone
>from Hungary announced that he also knows who they are, your reaction was
>something like this: "Oh, so it got to you, too?"

Look, I did not write to this list about my case. So spare me, the bull.

>not you who is the victim but those people who, only on the basis of your
>accusation, were supposed to have denounced you? More and more it looks that
>we are the real victims, not you.

We are? Who are they? You mean there is a group of people conspiring
against me. Was it a slip od your tang? :-)

>As for your assumption that I was snooping around to harm people!
>Whom should I want to harm? You? You are already gone from Argonne National
>Laboratory: you didn't even wait for the investigation of your activities,
>you quit! Surely, I can't harm you any more. However, it seems to me that
>you can harm people plenty! And you still do!

For example my boss, who got fired after a month, you spread your false info
of his firing. In other world you announced through "Karesz" in Forum some-
thing, that Human Relation of ANL. did not know that time. Is it the classical
example the communist court, where by accident the first document red to the
defendant is his or her own death sentence?

>I have never asked Istvan N. to keep our correspondence a secret.

Sure not.


>>Furthermore, someone threatened to turn in  Mr. Szilagyi at the
>>Hungarian Radio Petofi. Do you have any idea who that rat was? And
>>if my accusation such a false one, how come that, this rat did not
>>go ahead with her plan? You might be able to explain...

>No, I am unable to explain any of the above. I did contact Istvan N.
>and I got some information from him. That's all I know.

Oh now we are on the retreat? You wrote about Szilagyi right on HIX.
Do you want me to look it up for you? You accused  Radio  Petofi  of
spreading info without any proven base. In other world, my report which
was broadcasted a month ego in Hungary.

It never occurred to you, that Mr. Szilagyi might have all the needed
proofs? I fell sorry for you.

>I am an absolutely straighforward person and I have nothing to hide.
>I also have an extremely low opinion of people who play the kind of games
>you play on the Forum: pointing fingers at certain people, without offering
>any proof. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

You don't even know what the meaning of shame. You and your cronies had
no business lurking around my work place. Conducting an argument is one
thing, but prying into one's lifeline is something that has nothing to do
with honesty.

NPA.

In article >,
Lacko/Kohn > wrote:
>
>Wouldn't "ka've'm" mean "my coffee"?
>Margarita

By itself it does. But in the discussed structure it means that: my coffee does
not exist = I don't have any coffee
GK

I am sorry,but since I very seldom get involved in the discussions going on in
"Hungary",I feel I should let you people know what I think.
I realise that this thread is mostly for academic highly educated people,so
I'll be prepared to hear from all sides.I have to tell you,that at my age my
skin is quite thick and probaly I won't blush either.
I can not undestand how so higly educated people can be so vicious toward
each other,since someone has different outlook on life or the subject on
hand.Tham comes quotes from country or rock singers,to strenghten the point.
It is difficult to understand what goes on beetween Eva and NPA.the later
accuses her for spying,and a reason he lost his job.Then comes inuendoes,and
threath and counter threat,and excuses.Why?
This is supposed to be an eloquent thread.I wish the tone would calm
down,and maybe look at Peter Hidas notes and take example from him.
This does not mean anyway shape or form that if someone is accused of distortin
g
facts shouldn't have an opportunity to awnser.
It is alarming that somebodys resignation of his job should start
wispers,accustaions back satbbing etc.
I s this a Hungarian sickness?
I lived in Canada now 40 years.It tooke us less to be considered #1 in the worl
d
to live.I am proud of it,and seriously I have not seen and felt that much
backstabbing as here.
Maybe I should do as Mr.Benke did,threaten to dissacoate myself,and than
come back.No I will probaly stay,so I can read all the goodies wich will appear
.
Thanks' for listening:Andy Kozma (my real name)

At 12:21 PM 7/18/96 -0400, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:

>I meant NOT that women are undersirable, but rather others that I would
>not like to see my family or friends to observe.

Who are the "others"?  Are you going to tell us or not?

Joe Szalai

Dear fellow-listmembers,

Peter Soltesz yesterday took up my careless comments about debrecinsky
gulas in such a way as to make me think that where I saw a light-hearted
(if not "lite" in the calorific sense!) discussion about the wide spread
and influence of Hungarian cuisine to neighboring places like the Czech
lands, Austria, Germany, Romania, etc. -- a process in which, one might
speculate, there was plenty of space for two-way movement? -- he saw a
hidden agenda to annex part of the Hungarian patrimony (this time culinary,
next time who knows?).

Now it seems Eva Balogh and Norma Rudinsky have experienced a similar
misunderstanding.  Pity!

Such was definitely NOT my intention.  On the other hand, when several
generations of Czechs (or Slovaks, or Austrians, or so-ons: including
even Americans of Scotch-Irish descent?) have made and re-made and
passed on dishes, adapting to local climes, ingredients, and tastes,
_are_ they still "really" Hungarian dishes?

Would a Hungarian purist cook recognize the "debrecinsky gulas" I got
in the cheap pub in Cesky Krumlov as "Hungarian"?

I should rather think the kitchens of Hungary should be _proud_ of how
influential they have been (just as, say the Czechs are about their
impact on Austrian, at least Viennese, cuisine), than upset that dishes
originally Hungarian are now accepted as "typical fare" in a Czech class-
III pub...

I remember reading a fascinating article in a volume of essays in honor
of Tama1s Hofer about the process by which gulas became in the minds of
Hungarians the "national dish" -- I'd be curious to know how and when
the same thing happened to Czech "vepro-knedo-zelo".

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew


p.s. for Eva: actually, I really _wanted_ the cold sour-cherry soup
recipe!:-))  But thanks!

"Eva S. Balogh" > wrote:

>Yes. To the best of my knowledge Hungarian vocabulary in Romanian is
>quite extensive: 12-15 percent, something like that.

Romanian has borrowed many Hungarian words, majority of them related
to urban life, army organization, law and trade. However, the  figures
quoted above are way too high. This  is not to say that the linguistic
loan was not beneficial for the Romanian language.

>>However, if Hunedoara's linguistic roots are
>>indeed "Slovak," that's news to me. Are there any other Slovak-derived
>>names in that region, and, if that is actually the case, what is  the
>>interpretation associated with these occurrences ? I can think of one
>>but let me keep it in my sleeve for a moment or two :-)

>        I'm surprised that you are surprised about that. Most of the
>geographic names in that region are of Slavic origin, including, of course,
>the place names in Transylvania.

A careful reading should normally reveal that the object of my
puzzling was not the Slavic toponimy of Banat and Transylvania, but
Hunedoara's alleged Slovak derivation, especially since its age was
tacitly suggested to precede the Hungarians' arrival  in the
Carpathian basin. For that period, it was also argued, the distinction
between West and South Slavic languages was not yet a clear cut, a
viewpoint to which Eva apparently subscribed. The rebuttal is not,
however, anchored in linguistic data.

Conventional wisdom among Slavists holds that Common Slavic ended
around 500 AD, although there are linguists, such as Georghiev and
Patrut, arguing for the existence of a Late  Common Slavic time period
between 400 and 800 AD (see Birnbaum and Merrill, 1985, Slavia
Publishers). Whatever the case, by the late 9th century Common Slavic
was already a thing of the past, and Arpad's entrance in Pannonia had
arguably drove the last nail to its coffin.

True, the toponimy of Transylvania and Banat  regions is Slavic, but
it also has a strong South Slavic character. Therefore, a
Slovak-derived place-name represents a surprising curiosity, unless
its age is not pre-Arpadian but younger,  case in which Zoltan's
"copycat hypothesis" would seem reasonable.

Regards,

Liviu Iordache

Andy Kozma wrote:

>I can not undestand how so higly educated people can be so vicious toward
>each other,since someone has different outlook on life or the subject on
>hand.Tham comes quotes from country or rock singers,to strenghten the point.

Hmm, it is enough to read his own posting from few days earlier:

>It is a blessing in disguise that Peter A Nemenyi lost his job.At least
>now we can read his eloquent writing either in Hugary or Forum.
>Now he has all the time to educate us poor pots.

Is it enough for explanation?

>I can not undestand how so higly educated people can be so vicious toward
>each other,

Yeah, like being happy over someone's losses, like above?

>It is difficult to understand what goes on beetween Eva and NPA.the
>later accuses her for spying, and a reason he lost his job.

Accusing? Did not Eva agreed, that she was spying on me? And Andy should
not twist anything around. I never mentioned that her spying was
the reason for loosing my job. The spying happened after. So stick
to the facts please.

>This is supposed to be an eloquent thread.I wish the tone would calm
>down,and maybe look at Peter Hidas notes and take example from him.

Andy, should realize, that I did not start this thread. He himself did
it, and now preaching peace. But he is right though. The list should
forget about this case as long as it is still pending.

>This does not mean anyway shape or form that if someone is accused of
>distorting facts shouldn't have an opportunity to awnser.

You mean even I should have the opportunity? That sound mighty appealing
to me!

>It is alarming that somebodys resignation of his job should start
>wispers,accustaions back satbbing etc.

It was not just a resignation. It was a forced termination. And the loss
of job did not start any whisper. What started it was the fact, that some
of us is back stabbing those whose political views are different.

>I s this a Hungarian sickness?

It depends, if the denouncers were Hungarians?! ;-)

>Maybe I should do as Mr.Benke did,threaten to dissacoate myself,and than
>come back.No I will probaly stay,so I can read all the goodies wich will
>appear. Thanks' for listening:Andy Kozma (my real name)

Come back to where? To the States? :-)

NPA. (and that is a real name too)

In article >, "Eva S. Balogh"
> says:
>
>At 11:28 AM 7/18/96 -0400, Zoli Szekely wrote:
>
>>And not, I do not like radicalism, because it is a
>>jump into the un-known and also hurts/oppresses/kills
>>(choose your favourite) people. And, sorry, at least
>>until now, I haven't been able to uplift myself to be
>>a right-winger, as some historians - with very hard
>>childhood - do. Too bad for me, poor guy.
>
>        Me, a right-winger? You must be either out of your mind or you are
>ignorant.
>
>        Eva Balogh


Eva,

Maybe the dear one is both - - - and imagine that, he "haven't been able
to uplift himself to be a right-winger." Yeah, Eva you really come across
as a "right-winger" ha,ha. Now you have the dubious distinction of being called
an "elftars" by the "szilikon volgy" grup and a "right-winger" by
a babbling matematician ;-)))


>>>>>>SOME PEOPLE DRINK FROM THE FOUNTAIN OF KNOWLEDGE,
>>>>>>OTHERS JUST GARGLE!

Udvozlettel,
Marina

Sam Stowe wrote:
> >My point is, that if anybody has a different view from
> >my views of the Russian Revolution, it still would not
> >make him automatically a conspirationist or a nazi.
> >
> It does when his version blames western financiers with Jewish names for
> underwriting the cost of said revolution.
Back at the time of the Russian revolution we still can
not speak about nazis. Nazis appeared later, after the
WWI. Also, for a nazi it is very characteristic to call
on for violent actions. Hitler never concealed his plans,
as we know it from the "Mein Kampf". The world knew that
Hitler means violence. I would not call somebody a nazi
just for the fun of it.

> Whatever
> happened to blaming the Czarist court, and after them the Mensheviks, for
> being such a pack of inept clowns that when the Bolsheviks took over by
> force, everyone pretty much sat back figuring they couldn't be any worse
> than the last bunch running the place?
In the 19th century the social movements had 2 different
directions: the peaceful way and the violent way of
thinking. Karl Marx supported the latter, and by his
brilliant intellect he gave a boost to the violent forces
of the movements. At the turn of the century it still was
an open question: peaceful reforms or violent revolution?
When Ulyanoff and his Bolsheviks took over the Russian
Social Democratic Party, they threw the die. It was final,
that in this part of Europe the violent actions will
dominate. By this way Marx and Ulyanoff became responsible
for the 20-thiest century history of Eastern Europe.

> I think the moral bases of revolutionary action evaporate like a
> snowball in hell the minute the revolutionaries start lining their
> adversaries -- trade unionists, big land owners, intellectuals, village
> priests, what have you -- up against the wall and shooting them.
I could not agree more with your evaluation of the "moral
bases of the revolution". I talked about the moral bases of
the SOCIAL MOVEMENTS before. Social movements are not the
same as revolution. I my opinion revolutions does not have
moral bases at all. The violent action always destroys the
justifiability of any social movement. That's what I believe.

But, I have different views about the trade unions. In the
USA trade unions played a different role, but in Europe
the trade unions became the leading forces of peaceful
social changes. Revolutionists and trade unionists, oh yeah,
they are adversaries. And the responsible leftish politics
should support the latter and not the previous one. (In the
Hungarian Revolution in 56 the Worker's Councils played
the role of trade unions.)

It's another big chunk of meat to look at the trade unions
in Hungary now, but I do not want to take this direction.

With my best wishes:                              Sz. Zoli

>         Me, a right-winger? You must be either out of your mind or you are
> ignorant.
>
>         Eva Balogh
>
Eva, you have a very strong opinion about the social
spending in Hungary. You would like to eliminate
the 'welfare state', without realizing, that it is
not a luxuriery there, as you may think it is in some
Western European countries. In Hungary the 'welfare
state' is only a 'survival state' for many, the only
way to survive in the changing conditions of the
country.

Abolishing social rights of people and make them
overly vulnerable in a 'wild capitalistic' environment,
is not reminding me to any kind of leftish thinking.

                                           Sz. Zoli

Joe Szalai asks:
> And what do you call 'gentlmen' until they don't prove the opposite?  Or are
> your terms of endearment reserved only for the 'weaker sex'?

I have somehow different affections towards ladies
and gentlemen. I can not help, it's probably genetic.

                                            Sz. Zoli

Marina wrote:
> >>>>>>SOME PEOPLE DRINK FROM THE FOUNTAIN OF KNOWLEDGE,
> >>>>>>OTHERS JUST GARGLE!
I could not agree more.                         Sz. Zoli

Peter Soltesz wrote:

> >>>> Dear Readers:
> I am enclosing two Hungarian Language articles without comment.
> The first article is written by an american emigre,
> while Gidai lives in Hungary.

Well, it has been pointed out numerous times that posting Hungarian-
language material to the English-language HUNGARY list without an
English translation is not exactly good manners.

In this case it is a pity too, for many readers cannot read the typical
manifestations of a distinct, but thankfully small, section of Hungarians.
These people are quite insular from world events, they have an irrational,
instinctively anti-capitalist stand that is closest to that of right-wing
agrarian socialism [NOT a mistake, but accepted taxonomy !].  All rather
ironic for people many of whom at the same time live in the US and are
vocal supporters of the US system

Reading the article by the American Hungarian emigre begrudging the sell-
out of "our" property in Hungary to foreigners, and talking about "us the
10 million" suggests deep confusion about her identity.  As for the apparent
economics professor Gidai, her gravitas is well shown by her mixing standard
IMF and World-Bank-bashing with laments about lost opportunities for restoring
Hungary's historical borders when Hungary joins the European Union.  Where I
attended economics courses in Australia, such an essay would not have been
accepted from a green first-year student.

Remaining at a very emotional level, both articles clearly aim at presenting
as negative a picture of the Hungarian present as possible, without any
serious analysis of the causes and putting forward no alternative solutions
whatsoever.  In all, they are excellent examples of the kind of political
'thinking' where right-wing demagoguery blends becomes indistinguishable
from that of the left.

George Antony

I, for one, have closed the discussion on Mr. Nemenyi's firing,
quitting, termination of his job, I don't care what he calls it. However, I
can't leave without answering this one:

>You have called Horty's regime nazi once
>before. If that does not make him a nazi, as your logic dictates, than
>let's go further in time.

        I have never done anything of the sort! In fact, I argued against
such an interpretation by a young man who was enamored by the MSZP a couple
of years ago. I keep repeating that the Kadar regime's historical evaluation
of the Horthy regime must be revised further, but not even the Hungarian
historians of the last thirty years ever called the Horthy regime nazi.

>Kiraly was also a captain in Ferenc Szalasi's
>regime, which you called many times nazi. And how about the communist
>side of the story? Kiraly became a brigadier general in Matyas Rakosi's
>army and in an another flip-flop he became a general in Imre Nagy's re-
>volutionary forces. And of course he held a position as colonel general in
>Arpad Goncz's establishment as well.

        I have known Bela Kiraly for about twenty-five years. I have always
found him a gentleman and a democrat. As far as I know in 1945 he and his
brigade went over the the Soviet troops and that he was a professional
military man until 1951. I also know that he was falsely accused of crimes
against the state and received a death sentence, which was later commuted to
life. He was released in 1956 without rehabilitation. Otherwise, I know
nothing about him being a nazi or him being a communist.

>And a real reason why you claim to
>be so close politically to him is an easy question: He was a representative
>in the House for the SZ.D.Sz. :-)

        I have never said that Bela and I were politically close, simply
because I don't quite know what his current political views are. We used to
talk about history and the association and books we were doing together--not
politics.

>And we also know, that before 1956 only  those were able to  retain  any
>positions in student organizations, who were trustable by the comrades.
>By the way were you active in that time politically ? :-)

        An interesting interpretation of what was going on in 1956. I went
to the university as soon as I was able to, found the leaders of the
Budapest Student Revolutionary Council and someone recognized me, asked me
whether I would go to Gyor; they gave me a piece of paper: member of the
Budapest  Student Revolutionary Council. If you call that politically
involved, I guess, I was. After the Russians arrived, that's another story.

        By the way,  on the interview I will answer the following:

>You wrote about Szilagyi right on HIX.
>Do you want me to look it up for you? You accused  Radio  Petofi  of
>spreading info without any proven base. In other world, my report which
>was broadcasted a month ego in Hungary.

        I sure did. When I heard that the Petofi Radio was planning to do an
interview with you, I was more than surprised. I have always thought that
the Hungarian media is not worth a damn: journalists publish articles
without being 100% sure of their facts. They don't doublecheck their
sources.  And I was right! Considering that no information was available
from Argonne National Laboratory and the interviewer had no way of verifying
your story, I thought that it was highly irresponsible to air the interview
without really knowing what happened at Argonne National Laboratory. I still
think so, even after reading the text of the interview which was published
by Joe Pannon on scm. I said at that time that if the interview appears I
will write to the Petofi Radio and express my disapproval of their
journalistic practices. But, I said, I would write only after being able to
read the text. Until yesterday I was unable to do so. But now I know what
transpired and, yes, I will write to Petofi Radio and Mr. Arpad Szilagyi and
will express my disapproval of their shady journalistic practices.


        Eva Balogh

At 12:24 PM 7/18/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz wrote:

>Come on Zoli, I have to agree with Eva Balogh...
>The essence of the story is that if were in a similar situation
>in hungary (or for that matter most anywhere else) you would have
>NEVER made it.  That is the difference between America (Canada Inlcuded)
>and most other nations in the world. It has to do with opportunity.
>I congratulate Eva for making it!  Without the doles of this world....
>Peter Soltesz

Ah, for a moment I thought you said 'dolts of this world'.  And I thought
you were doing some self-criticism.  But no!

OK.  So you don't like the 'doles' of the world.  You also don't like some
of the undesirable types of people who go to the Turkish baths in Budapest.
Anyone else?  C'mon.  Here's your chance to spew some venom.

By the way, I'm glad you're siding with Eva Balogh.

Joe Szalai

At 02:22 PM 7/18/96 EDT, Hugh wrote:

>Now it seems Eva Balogh and Norma Rudinsky have experienced a similar
>misunderstanding.  Pity!

        I think it was easily resolved. I think Norma and I agree that we
have a common heritage, an especially close one and it is difficult to tell
the origin of this or that food, this or that custom, this or that folksong.

        Eva Balogh


>p.s. for Eva: actually, I really _wanted_ the cold sour-cherry soup
>recipe!:-))  But thanks!

        Sorry, coming!

        Eva