Nguyen Tri Duc > wrote:

>I did not mean to say that adherants to Buddhism are parasites; 

Actually I was thinking that parasites were adherants to Buddhism

>  What can I do to be helpful[to him]?"   All the same, I wish a 
>Zen master would walk up and slap the son of a bitch.   ;)
>
Actually wouldn't it be better if he assumed the full lotus position and 
remain there until he attains full enlightenment.

In article >, Hungarian-American List <hungary-re
> writes:
>
>REGIONAL NEWS
>-------------
>
>        **COUNCIL ACCEPTS NEW MEMBERS**
>        Ukraine and the former Yugoslav republic of Macedonia joined the
>        Council of Europe yesterday.... Ukraine must also
>        sign a convention on the protection of minorities within a
>        year.  Acccording to a 1991 census, about a fifth of its
>        population is Russian. 

That means that we'll no longer hear claims that Hungarians in Transylvania
are the largest minority in Europe. One slogan less, Joe!

Does anyone remember a Hungarian film by Peter Timar from 1988, MIELOT
BEFEJEZI ROPTET A DENEVER?

I would like a copy of this on video (without subtitles,. PAL, SECAM, or
NTSC fine). Please let me know how I might obtain this.

I will be in Budapest in December.

THANX

Bruce

[if this is in double, sorry -- had error, so retried...]

 () wrote:
>
>From the news:
>
>>HUNGARIAN TV BROADCASTS BANNED IN ROMANIA. Hungarian media on 8 November
>>reported that Romania's National Media Council has decided to ban
>>broadcasts by Duna TV, a Hungarian satellite program on cable network.
>>The head of the council told ethnic Hungarian deputy Ferenc Baranyi that
>>no license will be issued to cable television companies "for a certain
>>period of time." He said that according to information received by the
>>council, Duna TV broadcasts create suspicion between ethnic minorities
>>and the majority and are capable of "whipping up artificial tension." --
>
>What's next?  Jamming the satellite signals like in the good old days
>jamming RFE?
>I wonder what CE will have to say about this.
>
>JP
>

D'oh...

From the same news:

ROMANIA DENIES BANNING HUNGARIAN TV CHANNEL. Romania's National Audio-
Visual Council has denied banning broadcasts of the Hungarian satellite
program Duna TV on cable network (see OMRI Daily Digest, 8 November),
Romanian media reported on 9-10 November. The controversial decision
aroused strong criticism among Romania's Hungarian minority. -- Matyas
Szabo

--

Vlad Romascanu                                      
         '
_[E_O_Msg]_____________________________________________________________________

Hello Patrik

I will write to you in Hungarian, but if you prefer I can do this in English 
next time...

Az elmult nyaron voltam latogatoban otthon es eljutottam egy faluba amit Mád-na
k 
(Ma'd) neveznek.  Ez a helyseg Magyarorszag igen neves bortermelo videken van a
 
Tokaji hegysegben, ami egyebkent a Zemplen hegysegben van.

Valoszinu, hogy hallottal a Tokaji borokrol.  Kivalo minosegu borok.  A ket 
legertekessebb valtozata: Tokaji Szamorodni, es a Tokaji Asszu.  Az Asszu a 
legjobb.  Ha szereted a feher edes borokat, akkor ezeket nagyon fogod ertekelni
.

A faluban tobb borpince van.  Nehany bor gazda szivessen ad kostolot, de azert 
illik venni is.  En a Kocsis úr bortermelo gazdanal vettem 6 éves 6 puttonyos 
Tokaji Asszut. Kivalo bor, 2 literrel hoztam magammal Canadaba. Mindossze 
500FT/literbe kerult. Nagyon tudom ajanlani neked ôt.

Cimet nem tudok, pontossan megtudom mondani neked, hogy hol talalhatod:

A katolikus templom mögöt van a háza, a domb iranyaba felfelé.  Legjobb, ha 
megkerdezed valakitol, hogy hol lakik a Kocsis úr.  Mi is ugy talaltunk ra.  A 
pinceje valojaban ennek a templomnak az udvaraban van (nagyon erdekes).

Kerlek, ha megkapod ezt a levelet tudasd velem.  Kivanci lennek, hogy hanyan 
valaszoltak kerdesedre.

Szia

Richard Bötös

      ******************************************************************
      *                                                                *
      *                         Richard A. Bötös                       *
      *                                                                *
      *                    Hamilton, Ontario, Canada                   *
      *  ------------------------------------------------------------  *
      *                                                                *
      *    e-mail:                    alternate e-mail:                *
      *                *
      *                                                                *
      ******************************************************************


>

In >  (Gary D. Fadling) writes:

>	I can't help but wonder, given a choice, if the residents (regardless of 
>ethnicity) of Transylvania might not tell both governments (Hungarian and 
>Romanian) to take themselves elsewhere.

Instead of wondering, go there and ask them.

Dan
--
Dan Pop
CERN, CN Division
Email:  
Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland

In article >, CHARLES VAMOSSY 
hi.com> writes:
 (Constantin Donea) wrote:
>
>>Or aren't USA any more both the motherland and the fatherland of the
>>democracy in the world?
>>
>>Constantin Donea

>Sometimes you really do say surprisingly silly things.  
>
>Democracy, as far as we know, was first practised in ancient Greece, 
>several millenia earlier than the discovery of North America.  The US 
>(and Canada)  both derive their democratic traditions from England 
>mainly, as well as other Norther European countries.  (Here in New York 
>City, our first city charter was drawn up by the Dutch).
>

Charles,

It was intended to be a mockery at the growing US role in defending
democracy all over the world, especially in those areas where they
have some other interest. Now really, you never heard someone calling
the US "the motherland of the democracy"? The poor guys back in Romania
were intoxicated with this kind of stuff. And I thought noticing that 
this "wooden language" didn't spare Americans either.

My wife and I plan to travel in Central Europe over the Christmas 
holiday; last year we were in Prague. This year we would also like to 
visit Budapest. Can any one give us some idea of what the city is like 
during the holidays? Are restaurants open? Do the Magyars have explosive 
and noisy New Year's celebrations like those in some (I'll leave them 
unidentified) Northern European countries?  Does anyone recommend any 
particular accommodations at a moderate price?  Thanks.

 wrote:
>Nguyen Tri Duc > wrote:
>
>>I did not mean to say that adherants to Buddhism are parasites; 
>
>Actually I was thinking that parasites were adherants to Buddhism
>
>>  What can I do to be helpful[to him]?"   All the same, I wish a 
>>Zen master would walk up and slap the son of a bitch.   ;)
>>
>Actually wouldn't it be better if he assumed the full lotus position and 
>remain there until he attains full enlightenment.
>

He apparantly has been doing *just that* in a cave somewhere in Siberia.
It just has not yet come to effect, obviously. At any rate his world
must have been incredibly dark under his self-applied sociocultural 
blindfold in addition to the "Iron Curtain" behind which he has been 
living his entire (adolescent) life.  

But, as I said, it can't be the fault of "Mother Russia."  I *sat* with
hundreds in meditation under the capitol dome in Austin, Texas, in an 
AIDS vidual.  If capitalism and democracy have any inherrent effect it 
escaped us all, for NOONE became enlightened sitting under the rotunda
where Texas politicians gather.

-nguyen

 () wrote:

>Laszlo Katkits > wrote:
>>>
>>>Don't put words into my mouth, please!  I was only referring to a
>>>natural human tendency to favor its own kind.
>>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>What does the national identity to do with anything natural
>>human?

>That's funny to hear from somebody who feels so much kinship with all
>those Jews supposedly killed by Hungarians.  I thought most of them were
>killed in Auschwitz, but what do I know ...
>In any case, if you can so identify with all those Jews, why should I
>not identify with all those Hungarians (many of whom might actually be
>Jews, BTW)?

>>>...  From what I know, Hungarians are far more tolerant of
>>>minorities than Jews of Israel are.   
>>>
>>Just let me tell you something: you don't know anything about
>>tolerance, and just nothing about minorities in Israel. Do not
>>speak about something you don't have any ideas about.

>Really?  You mean to tell me that any news having to do with Jews or
>Israel is no good unless it comes from or is approved by Jewish sources?  
>Of course I knew this was the case regarding the Holocaust, but you seem 
>to extending it a bit wider.  I hope it's just my misunderstanding.

>>Killing hundreds of tousends of jews, serbs, roma: is this
>>the tolerance you talk about? Thank you for that! 
>>Just count how many jews were killed by Hungarians for
>>not being Hungarians, and how many Hungarians were killed
>>for not being jews! Then, and only then can you talk
>>about tolerance to minorities!

>Hundreds of thousands?  You mean they were ALL killed by Hungarians?
>Tell me more.  I am always eager to learn.

>> Being less restrictive against
>>romans in Hungary then they are in Romania against Hungarians
>>does not mean that Hungary is the exempel to follow.

>Only more so than Israel, for instance.

>>Or just a small mentioning that some of those you name as
>>Hungarians, when it's convenient might be jews, makes you
>>furious ? Your hate is just boiling, and you claim that
>>you are tolerant? 

>I think what we have here is you projecting your hate on me.
>This should be pretty obvious to any 3rd party observer.

>>>Since Israel is such a young country, I wonder myself how many Nobel
>>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>This was the joke of the year.

>Let's see...  It's less than 50 years old.  Is that a joke?

>>>What about Wallenberg?
>>>
>>Yes, what about him? You who know so much about it, don't you
>>know that he was not acting by the Swedish government, but
>>the US? He was not even a Swedish diplomat, just a secreterian.

>I've heard and read about Wallenberg's American connections, but it's
>news to me that all those Sweedish passports and safe houses were really
>US operations.  You are actually justifying the Soviet capture of
>Wallenberg with that statement, if you think of it.
> 
>>So please do not mix it with the Swedes mentality towards the jews!

>I really don't care about the Swedes.  But based on your attitude toward
>them, I wonder what you think of the US, which refused entry to that
>famous ship loaded with European Jewish refugees in 1939.  Then failed
>to bomb the railroads leading to Auschwitz or other KZ camps.

>Apropos ...  If you dislike the Swedish attitude toward the Jews, what
>are you doing there, anyway?  Why didn't you go straight to Israel from
>Hungary? 

>>>keep sniping at her all the time. 
>>What do you mean? Specially _all the time_ ????

>I just know from experience that people like you can only be happy if
>they can throw some mud at Hungary.

>>And do Csurka & Co.need more ammunition? Isn't it enough to
>>be _A'rpa'dha'zi magyar_ to be better than all others on this earth?

>Actually, I've never heard Hungarians considering thelmselves to be the
>chosen people (and acting like it, too).  Have you?
>BTW, very few of today's Hungarians could call themselves "Arpadhazi".

>>When will the Hungarians leave this nationalistic crap? When will they
>>ever learn?

>Having lived half my life in the US, I am quite sure in saying that
>Americans are far more nationalistic than Hungarians.  I think what you
>call "nationalistic crap" in Hungary may be not much more than a
>self-defense mechanism.  Have you looked around Hungary's neighborhood
>lately?

>>updated about what's happening around, and my old habit to reflect
>>to steamy nationalism made me answer to your not quite fair
>>logging of Nobel prize reciepients.

>First of all, it wasn't me who posted that list of Hungarian Nobel Prize
>winners.  Do you read at all what you respond to?

>In closing let me reiterate what I already indicated earlier: it is the
>type of hatred and venom you exhibit toward Hungary and Hungarians that
>fuels antisemitism today more than anything inherent in non-Jewish
>Hungarians.  You and Csurka were made for each other.

>Joe Pannon
Excuse me for butting in here, but I thought that you  might want to
know that not all Hungarians were anti-semetic during the Second World
War.  My father, now departed, was a soldier in the Hungarian Army (a
draftee) during that time.  Near the end of the German occupation of
Hungary, he was wounded and spent time recovering in a hospital in
Budapest.  There he, along with the staff of the hospital as well as
numerouse other wounded soldiers did everything they could to house,
feed and hide many Jewish HUNGARIANS from the fascists.  So to those
that blame Hungarians for mass deportations and murder of Jews, think
again.. It was wartime, the nation was occupied by fascists and
although many jews were deported, many more were not because of the
efforts of ordinary Hungarians to save them.Remeber,  had they been
caught, they would have shared the same fate as the Jews.  Now here in
Calgary, at least the Canadian Legion recognises the fact that even
though Hungarians were supposed allies of the Axis Powers, they were
unwilling and unco-operative allies at best and quite subversive when
they had a chance.  During the Remebrance Day ceremonies, Hungarian
veterans are allowed to lay wreaths in remebrance of their dead
comrades at the Cenotaphe.  Thanks for letting me get this off my
chest.

Frank Sztraka

Alexander Bossy > wrote:
>
>	You completely misunderstood what I was saying.  The ethnic 
>Hungarians living in Transylvania are Romanian citizens - i.e., they ARE 
>Romanians.  Let them represent themselves.  They don't need the entire 
>Hungarian diaspora to represent them, disenfanchising them in the process.

You make it sound as if the Hungarian diaspora wanted something else for
their Transylvanian kins as they themselves want.  If so, please point
out those differences.  If anything, the Hungarians in Romania are
begging Hungarians all over to lend them their moral support and expect,
want us to voice their position in international forums where they could
not do so without being branded as disloyal to Romania..

But I think this is just another phoney argument, Alexander, because
your kins oppose the UDMR positions just as much as our positions
outside Romania.

>	Let's remember that we do have a few Transylvanian voices on the: 
>Matyas, recently, and Lehel (sp?) in the not so distant past.  Ask them 
>what the problems are (and they will tell you that there are problems).  
>Listen to them.  Learn from them.  And, sadly, observe that they feel 
>that they need to use a anonymous remailer to post their quite moderate 
>views.  :-(

Doesn't that indicate that they don't feel free to openly state their
positions?  Besides, what was it they wrote that is not in line with what 
other Hungarians write?  (Most of their posts were in Romanian, so my
question is more genuine than you think.)

>  There is much more than merely minority rights that needs to 
>be fixed before Romania becomes a fully democratic nation.

Yes, but for the minorities, the order of priorities may be different,
don't you think?

Joe

Adrian Precup-Pop  > wrote:
>
>By the way, I understood from you and Joe Panon that Hungarians and
>Szeklers are not the same kind of stuff, so maybe you should split the
>percentages for them.

Wouldn't that be nice?  BTW, the difference between them is about as
pronounced as between Germans of Saxony and Germans of Bavaria.  So
which of them should not be counted as Germans?

Panonescu

Alexander Bossy > wrote:
>
>	If you really, seriously want to re-open this argument, say so, 
>and I will argue it all over again.  But, having learned my lesson last 
>time, I'll cross-post to the archeology and classics newsgroups so that 
>you can't simply dismiss thousands of objects as simply "finding a Roman 
>vase".

Hell, no!  Do we have anything new to say to each other on the subject?
I only mentioned it because you like to make occasional allusions to
that debate as if you won it or something.

>	Joe, you are arguing Out-of-Illyria.  Don't you have any sources 
>for it?  Is this only based on old wives' tales you learned in childhood, 
>or have you actually done some research?  I only want the name of one 
>book written this decade, or last, that agrees with your beliefs.  And, 
>unlike you, I don't care what the author's exact genetic make-up is.

Oh good!  Here is a Hungarian one right at my hand, but since you could
not read it, what good is it for?  Just came out in the last 4 years.
It's title would translate as "The history of Romanians", by Zoltan
Szasz.  It discusses the various theories of origin of Romanians and
mentions the "immigration" theory as the most likely, and favored by 
German and Hungarian historians.  According to this book, the 150 or so
years of Roman rule could hardly have left any significant romanized
population in Dacia, and neither is its survival supported by 
convincing archeological or written record.  It's far more likely, that
it was formed South of the Danube, from ancient Thracian-Illirian
transhumating shepherd ethnic stock during the centuries of Roman rule,
raughly in the Nis-Sophia-Skopje triangle.  Traces of this are found all
over in the Balkans.  Parts of them got to North-Greece, others all the
way to Istria where they survived until this century.  The largest and
most warrior-like segment, through the process of transhumating,
gardually moved in between the Danuba and Carpathians (some even into
Transylvania proper), starting from the 10th century.  This process
stretched into the 14th century.  The author also mentions the
Bulgar-Vlach state, formed in 1185.  In any case, the majority of
available primary sources supports the above theory.  If I recall,
Liviu's first article starting the debate with you on this subject,
cited a long list of contemporary references that also gave strong
support to this theory.

But really, this is as far as I want to go with this, because there is
nothing new that can be said about the subject since last time.

>	Look at the dates.  I did.  Lots of 1960's, and some 1970's. Also, 
>almsot all of his argument was about linguistics.  I'm much more 
>interested in the archeology since it can actually prove something.

What's wrong with those dates?  60s and 70s were not that long ago.

>	Oh, I think that you know who I was talking about.  And yes, I admit 
>that it is a cheap shot.

It crossed my mind that you may have been referring to me, but it made
so little sense that way that I dismissed it.  Why should I have to be a
published author to argue my position? 

>	The correct transliteration from cyrilic is "Bossii", but my great 
>great grandfather was a great Francophile, so he changed the spelling.  

Well, in Cyrillic the name "Bossii" could also be taken as a Russian
name, such as Vishinskii , or Vishinskij.  But hey, if Popovici can be a
Romanian name, why not Bossii? ;-)

>(One of Napoleon's generals was named Bossy).  At least his friends 
>disuaded him from changing it to "de Bossy".

Figures.
>
>	If you know any Latin, you will recognize that "-ii" is a very 
>common tribe of clan name ending (nominative plural of the first 
>declention.

Yes, I studied Latin, but your explanation is a bit tortuous.  Perhaps
the key is not in the -ii ending, but in the root of "Bossy".  Help me
out, please, because I can't think of any Latin names starting with
"boss...".  Not that it matters to me, but since you started the name
game ...

>	I never saw his post.   I never read his post.  Whether or not 
>you consider me an objective person, I can't tell you if I think that he 
>knows what he was talking about - and you are trying to convince me, 
>aren't you? - based merely on you remarks.

I am surprised, because most of the regulars probably know about him.
Perhaps you could ask about him from one of your buddies in the
ROMANIANS list.

BTW, most of you are convinced that my only interest in writing here is
"rubbing it in", so to speak.  Had it been up to me, we could have
pursued subjects that might show the similarities between our nations,
instead of the sources of conflict.  Unfortunately, every
time I started such topic, the lack of responses indicated no interest
in such issues.  Two of these topics I tried recently was the
relationship between the home folks and the diaspora ("Why do Romanians
like their emigres more than Hungarians?"), and the transformation of
the former communist elite to today's ruling class.  
I guess it's hard to break through Byzantine suspicions. 

Joe

In article >, Khomeyni > writes:
						     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
							   ?
					talking about intoleracne & hatered

|> So, what happens when you are in a bad mood ? Is it a kind of threat on 
|> the - known and too much kept "under control" - hungarian intollerance 
|> and hatered agains romanians ? Matyas, YOU are looking for it...


Looking for what?

You should rather point to any of my postings showing intolerance or hatered. 

Matyas

P.S. I hate to explain obvious things, but my good mood was the reason for
the jokes in my posting (I couldn't help it).
--****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--***ATTENTION***
Your e-mail reply to this message WILL be *automatically* ANONYMIZED.
Please, report inappropriate use to                
For information (incl. non-anon reply) write to    
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Dear netter,

1. I have opened a book of condolences for Ken Saro-Wiwa.
  
  The URL is

   http://www.nigeria.com/hy-nigeria/get/boards/ken.html

2. A discussion topic relating to the recent suspension of Nigeria
from the Commonwealth has been opened. 
  
  The URL is

   http://www.nigeria.com/hy-nigeria/get/boards/951112.html

3. A discussion topic about the relevance of the Commonwealth has been
opened.
  
  The URL is

   http://www.nigeria.com/hy-nigeria/get/boards/951109.html
 

The mainmenu to all discussion groups is at URL

http://www.nigeria.com/soapbox/discuss.htm

We would like to get in contact with Hungarian companies working with 
'offshore programming' for Western clients.
Please e-mail at the above-mentioned address.

Thank you in advance.

In article >, David Glaser 
t.com> writes:
 (Sonar5) wrote:
>>Hi Please support this bill and keep the foreigners out...
>>
>
>Hey Sonar5,
>
>I happen to believe that immigration is good for the country.  After 
>all, this is a country of immigrants, que no?  Why are
>you against it?
>
>Do you feel that immigrants are the cause of all problems in the US?
>
>-David
>


Dave--

If Sonar5 is even remotely like Chris Moore--then he'll want to blame
everything from single parenthood to the fact that other people have
different religious beliefs to fluke accidents on immigrants.

People like them make me ashamed of Americans.

Their stupidity traverses the entire Internet and gives others the worst
view or aspect of Americans...


They exemplify the phrase "Ugly Americans"...


Kim
*************************************************
 Kimberly Golden       * B.A. English/Creative Writing
     * These are MY thoughts,
**************************** and I can say what I WANT!
**************************************** (cos I'm a spoiled brat!)

BINGBING -- the sound of double deletion.

>From: Khomeyni >
>Subject: Re: Quebec, Transylvania and Ma
>Date: Sat Nov 11 04:53:45 1995
>small pointLou mke, Joe! Keep on ignog the impont facts 
>presehunarians are bitching lies about Romania 
>(and itseople) in frnt of thworld comity, igring and 
>disrescting th truth - of(many of) you are 
>conantly dong think that you simply destroy any sincere 
>dialogue, respect (possibly friendship) tht romians could have
>for youin a fair-play, change of ideas ? We are easy to
>made frinds o and can see, but not to  
>take revenge, only to acknwledge or in that part of the 
>world-. ict - andfor reaching to this, 

-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

 (Wally Keeler) wrote:
>The zones administered by respective governments were established at the
>expense of blood, not votes. Transylvania belongs to whom? 

CHARLES VAMOSSY > wrote:
>It should be rather transparent who Transylvania belongs to, as far as 
>the human rights of the people who live there.  Most Hungarians -- as 
>well as successive governments of Hungary -- DO NOT advocate changing the 
>borders, but to make the borders less relevant, as it is happening in 
>Western Europe.

The question was intended to be rhetorical -- however, I consider your
reply most agreeable.

Wally Keeler wrote:
>Transylvania is currently administered by a government dominated by ethnic
>Romanians. This is likely to remain so. Whatever "rights" are afforded to
>the ethnic Hungarians in Transylvania will be determined by the fiat of
>the dominating ethnic demographic who will always act in the best interest
>of itself -- generosity is not a cultural characteristic of Romanians any
>more than it is of Hungarians. 

CHARLES VAMOSSY > wrote:
>That is sad to hear... I would have thought that you at least would pay 
>lip service to democracy and say that ALL citizens would have a chance to 
>express themselves, not just the dominating ethnic group.

I quite agree with you. What I wrote above was only a description of fact
as it is on the ground -- this does not mean that I find such a position
beneficial for all the parties concerned. MY preference coincides with
yours in this instance.

Wally Keeler wrote:
>Transylvania under the administration of the Austro-Hungarian empire was
>certainly no democratic paradise for the ethnic Romanians. 

CHARLES VAMOSSY > wrote:
>I would agree that the Austro-Hungarian empire was not a model of western 
>style democracy by any means.  Neither, I think was its neighbor, 
>Romania, or indeed any other East-Central European country.  

This is where I probably part company with many Europeans. I don't consider
history particularly relevent in issues of human rights and democracy,
especially when history has been written as a record of the whims of kings,
despots, dictators, and other manifestations of nondemocratic activity. In
these stories the general population were nothing more than pawns and
subjects. That any people can identify ethnically or culturally with
policies decided by unelected kings etc. is beyond me. The past is much
less relevent than the future. It is the future that needs the focus, and
the reference points should not be restricted to the narrow little back
alley of ethnicity or nationality. Reference points must now include the
entire world in all its diverse splendour. So saith Wally Keeler. 

CHARLES VAMOSSY > wrote:
>Democracy is still a taste being acquired in the regioun.  Some have
>progressed more, some less.  

Democracy is very clumsy.  

CHARLES VAMOSSY > wrote:
>By the way, I am curious why you constantly choose to focus on a very 
>brief history of the region, from 1867 to 1918, the brief life span of 
>the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy?? Hungarians entered the region, including 
>Transylvania, almost a 1000 years earlier. 

Only curious -- were they invited in? I recall one Hungarian posting a line
about the Hungarians charging into Europe on horseback and how the
inhabitants were scared shitless. It was a well crafted line. At any rate,
Atilla is highly regarded among Hungarians. He was a winner. I understand
the dynamic. Nevertheless, there is the equally valid viewpoint that the
Hungarians came in uninvited and took over the plains by means of murder.
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

On 11 Nov 1995, CHARLES VAMOSSY wrote:

> Is it a wonder, then, that they are not exactly happy campers?
> 
> Charles Vamossy

Could you indulge us, and kindly elaborate on whom the 'not exactly
happy campers' may be ?
Are they the new class of would be professional politicians, for whom
it is imperative to stir up a controversy to make a career ?
Are they the countless average ethnic Hungarians that were quite resentfull
of the graby habits of 'the mama orszag' durring the brief Horty occupation
of a chunk of Transylvania ?

m. cristian

In >  () writes:

>In article >,  > wrote:
>>
>>    This is just an observation because I don't care one way or the next 
>>about the language that students in romania learn in.  However you might 
>>take the recent vote in quebec as a motive to stop lingual diversity in 
>>transylvania.  This has happened in the united states where a congress 
>>man (from my state even)as a result of recent event in Canada has 
>>introduced a law that will effectly outlaw the teaching of lower level 
>>classes in languages other than english.
>
>The situation in the US and in Romania is not comparable.  Hungarians in
>Transylvania are not recent immigrants there as those in the US who want
>bilingual education for themselves.  There is a difference in how they
>became strangers in the respective countries: in one case the border
>moved and the people stayed, in the other the people moved and the
>border stayed.  When I immigrated to the US, it would not have crossed
>my mind that somehow the natives owed me the maintenance of my Hungarian
>culture.  Is this such a difficult distinction to make?

How about the Spanish speaking minority from the South of the USA?
Names like Santa Cruz, Las Vegas, Los Angeles strongly suggest that those
places were inhabited by Spanish speaking people before becoming part of
the USA.  So, like in Romania's case, the people stayed and the border
moved.  Do you admit the right of those people to have state universities
where they are being taught in Spanish?

Dan
--
Dan Pop
CERN, CN Division
Email:  
Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland

Folks, this thread is not on-topic for news.admin.net-abuse.misc
and, judging by the *length* of the Newsgroups: header, not many of the
others, either.

	Could you, perhaps, take it elsewhere?  Along with the rest of
these related threads?  And out of, say, alt.internet.media-coverage,
misc.news.internet.discuss [if that's where it's supposed to be going],
and the rest of the unrelated groups?  
	
	Thanks.

				- Tim Skirvin )
--
<a href="http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/tskirvin">Skirv's Homepage</a>
<a href="http://arh0062.urh.uiuc.edu/killfile.html">The Daemons</a>

 (Sonar5) wrote:
>Hi Please support this bill and keep the foreigners out...
>

Hey Sonar5,

I happen to believe that immigration is good for the country.  After 
all, this is a country of immigrants, que no?  Why are
you against it?

Do you feel that immigrants are the cause of all problems in the US?

-David

 (Wally Keeler) wrote:
>The more important point about Moldavia, Wallachia, Hungary, Serbia, and
>all the other little areas of Europe over the past 1000 plus years was that no
ne of it was determined by any democratic means. It was determined >by
>kings, queens, dictators, etc. Nothing in that history to be proud about.

I agree with you statement generally.  History is an evolving story, one 
of progress, one hopes.  The past is great reference book of a few 
sucesses and a lot of failures.  I can't think of any American, for 
example, who is proud of having preserved slavery longer than any western 
country.  
>The zones administered by respective governments were established at the
>expense of blood, not votes. Transylvania belongs to whom? 

It should be rather transparent who Transylvania belongs to, as far as 
the human rights of the people who live there.  Most Hungarians -- as 
well as successive governments of Hungary -- DO NOT advocate changing the 
borders, but to make the borders less relevant, as it is happening in 
Western Europe.

Transylvania is
>currently administered by a government dominated by ethnic Romanians. This
>is likely to remain so. Whatever "rights" are afforded to the ethnic
>Hungarians in Transylvania will be determined by the fiat of the dominating
>ethnic demographic who will always act in the best interest of itself --
>generosity is not a cultural characteristic of Romanians any more than it
>is of Hungarians. 

That is sad to hear... I would have thought that you at least would pay 
lip service to democracy and say that ALL citizens would have a chance to 
express themselves, not just the dominating ethnic group.

>Transylvania under the administration of the Austro-
>Hungarian empire was certainly no democratic paradise for the ethnic
>Romanians. 

I would agree that the Austro-Hungarian empire was not a model of western 
style democracy by any means.  Neither, I think was its neighbor, 
Romania, or indeed any other East-Central European country.  Democracy is 
still a taste being acquired in the regioun.  Some have progressed more, 
some less.  Both the EU and the US is watching intently how well the 
lesson is being learned.  

By the way, I am curious why you constantly choose to focus on a very 
brief history of the region, from 1867 to 1918, the brief life span of 
the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy?? Hungarians entered the region, including 
Transylvania, almost a 1000 years earlier. 
>
>What is under the administrative control of the Romanian government was not
>established by vote. 

Huh?  When?  Who?  It was established by the Great Powers in Paris.  
No plebicite or vote was ever taken.

Wally, after all is said and done, our little discussion here means 
little in the scheme of things.  The prize for all the successor states 
of the ex-Soviet bloc is entry in NATO and the European Union. The EU is 
a vitally necessary shelter for economic survival, while NATO is a club 
you must join to get inside the shelter.  The original members are not 
all that ready to share their cosy place and the applicants all must 
clean up their act to get an interview.

It is a tough road, both economically and socially.  Hungary, I feel, has 
a number of difficult problems it must solve.  Privatization is still 
going too slow, the economy -- even though it enjoyed the lion's share of 
foreign incestment -- is sputtering.  There are also problems with equal 
opportunities for it's largest minority, the Romas, in spite of 
successively progressive laws protecting their rights and giving them 
self government.  There are also encouraging signs:  two elections that 
international observes called fair and orderly,  a genuine effort by two 
governments to reach basic treaties with its new neighbors, including 
Ukraine and Slovakia.  And the economy is also expanding still, large 
state monopolies are are sold off slowly.    There is a genuine effort by 
most Hungarians to act, think, behave like Europeans.

As far as the FUTURE of their relatives, Hungarians living outside of 
Hungary's borders, are concerened, once again, most Hungarians, I 
believe, look to Western Europe for guidelines.  They take the European 
Parliament's recommendations as the base, as it was with the Slovak 
treaty.  They also look to Austria, for example, which lost a number of 
German speaking Austrians in Southern Tyrol to Italy the same time 
Hungary lost Transylvania and admire the civilized, mutually respectful 
agreement they reached. They also recognize the role Austria played 
in bringing both the problem and the suggested solution before the 
international community and helped slve the problem.  They study the 
Catalonians, the Flemish people, etc. and hold them up as example for 
how, in a new Europe, old hatreds are replaced by new solutions.

Wally, if you feel Romania, of which you know a great deal more about 
than I, is progressing well on the same road to EU and NATO membership, 
then all is well and our discussion is superfluous. I am not the one you 
have to convince.  Members of the US Congress, who will soon consider 
again Romania's MFN status, NATO, EU Parliament members -- they are ones 
who count.

Just one more thing --  don't you think it might be a good idea for the 
Romanian Parliament and President Iliescu to rescind the recent law they 
passed that punishes by 3 years in jail those who display any foreign 
flag or sing a foreign anthem?  Imagine how embarrasing it may be when a 
group of Romanian citizens welcoming a group of visiting foreign 
businessmen by decorating their businesses with a German, French, 
English, Canadian or US flag are thrown in jail!  (I don't even 
want to mention the countless US and Canadian college kids roaming 
Europe in the summer -- mine included --, who in Romania risk 3 years in 
the can for doing what they generally do -- wear their national flags on 
their clothes sometimes in the most unusual places.)

On this last issue -- the flag/anthem quiestion -- could you or someone 
explain to me what was the serious problem in Romania that required such 
a serious remedy?  After all, this law was not just a poorly thought out 
decree by an overzealous local official; it was debated by the 
Parliament, voted for by the majority of the delegates and signed into 
law by the President.

Take care...


Charlie Vamossy

I am Hungarian by birth and conviction, and perhaps most importantly by 
culturization. My early and basic values are of my environment, including 
the local Catholic church I attended and my "cserkesz" group. I am also 
half-Jewish and part of my family perished somewhere in the extermination 
camps. I am alive because many friends of our family saved several of us.
I am forever grateful and cherish the memory of these dear people.

I am also angry at a political system that forced me to leave my home 
country because of my actitivites leading up to and during the 1956 
uprising. As a member of my colleg's student council, I was one of the 
organizers of the march originating at the Muegyetem, the march that led 
to the actual rebellion in Budapest. After the Russian return on November 
4, I was advised by my professors and mentors at the university that I had 
no future if I stayed in Hungary. Reluctantly I did and since than I have 
established a new life for myself and started an American family. 

I am proud of my heritage and brought up my sons to feel the same way. We 
recently visited Budapest and my boys, both in their twenties, were glad 
to discover their roots. 

Yet, under no circumstances would I return and live permanently in my 
birthplace. One memory is vivid in my mind: During April of 1957 I was 
given the opportunity to leave the refugee camps and emigrate to the U.S. 
On the way to our departure, we were quarantined for two weeks at the 
Hungaraian refugee camp in Salzburg. On our way the bus caravan of about 
ten large buses containing perhaps 350 Hungarians of all creeds, 
backgrounds, ages, localities, etc. pulled in to the main arrivals area of 
the camp. I don't know how many jews were on the buses, if any, yet we had 
a mob of several hundred camp residents waving sticks, throwing stones, 
and yelling anti-semitic slogans at us. Their intent was clearly to 
cause physical harm. The Austrian police had to protect the buses and the 
camp administration boarded each bus stating that those who were jewish 
would be sent to a separate building in the camp for their own protection. 
I must tell you all that on April 2, 1957 in Salzburg, Austria I was not 
proud to be a Hungarian.

Peter Aradi

 (George Szaszvari) writes:
|>Personally, I would love to see Transylvania exist as an independent 
|>multi-cultural pluralistic state incorporating all the rich diversity
|>that makes it such a wonderful place (a diversity that is being 
|>eroded by greedy and moronic political pressures and scare-mongering 
|>on ALL sides.)

Dan Pop wrote:
|This diversity is no longer what it used to be. The Saxons have left,
|the Jews have left, so Transylvania is inhabited today mostly by
|Romanians, Hungarians and Gypsies.

Note that the Saxons and Jews left by virtue of being sold by the
Romanians who did what with the multi-millions of dollars?

|>But this utopian dream is unlikely.....(sigh)...

|And the primary reason it is unlikely is that the Romanians, who form the
|absolute majority of Transylvania's population (by a large margin) don't
|want it. Looks like a very good reason to me.

True enough! Romanians have no utopian dreams of any sort to speak of. The
majority of Romanians is a fact of life and will remain so for the
foreseeable future. Romanians will make all the decisions cultural,
linguistic, etc., in accordance to their particular ethnocentric interest.
If their interest coincides with that of any other ethnics, fine, if not,
forget it. The Magyars, Gypsies and whatnot, will simply submit to the
interest of Romanians. That is how Romania is.

Canada has a vast majority of Anglophones. The situation here is that
Canadians by and large have no fear of cultural diversity; in fact, they
tend to see diversity as desirable. This will continue and it will be to
the net benefit of Canada.

The ethnocentric supremacy advocated by Dan Pop will not be much of a net
benefit to Romania. It will be Romania's albatross. I think that the
vibracy of cultural life within Romania would increase if diversity were
left to florish -- and a rise in the standard of living would be a
pleasant spin-off. 

Dan Pop is a cultural tight-ass.
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

 (Gary D. Fadling) writes:
|>I can't help but wonder, given a choice, if the residents (regardless
|>of ethnicity) of Transylvania might not tell both governments (Hungarian
|>and Romanian) to take themselves elsewhere.

 (Dan Pop) wrote:
|Instead of wondering, go there and ask them.

It's a foregone conclusion. However, I might want to ask them in 20 years
when they have been exposed to the larger world and have made comparisons
based on that exposure.
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

CHARLES VAMOSSY > wrote:
>Wally, after all is said and done, our little discussion here means 
>little in the scheme of things. The prize for all the successor states 
>of the ex-Soviet bloc is entry in NATO and the European Union. The EU is 
>a vitally necessary shelter for economic survival, while NATO is a club 
>you must join to get inside the shelter.  The original members are not 
>all that ready to share their cosy place and the applicants all must 
>clean up their act to get an interview.

I'm inclined to be quite reticent about permitting the "east bloc" nations
becoming NATO members. I have virtually no hesitation about any other kind
of joining. I regret no end the foolishness of NATO involvement in the
Balkan situation. I don't consider that it has any right to be involved --
it is not within its mandate. 

Charles Vamossy wrote:
>It is a tough road, both economically and socially.  Hungary, I feel, has 
>a number of difficult problems it must solve.  Privatization is still 
>going too slow, the economy -- even though it enjoyed the lion's share of 
>foreign incestment -- is sputtering.  
         ^^^^^^^^^^
                   \ I love this Freudian slip.

Charles Vamossy wrote:
>There are also problems with equal 
>opportunities for it's largest minority, the Romas, in spite of 
>successively progressive laws protecting their rights and giving them 
>self government.  There are also encouraging signs:  two elections that 
>international observes called fair and orderly,  a genuine effort by two 
>governments to reach basic treaties with its new neighbors, including 
>Ukraine and Slovakia.  And the economy is also expanding still, large 
>state monopolies are are sold off slowly.    There is a genuine effort by 
>most Hungarians to act, think, behave like Europeans.
>
>As far as the FUTURE of their relatives, Hungarians living outside of 
>Hungary's borders, are concerened, once again, most Hungarians, I 
>believe, look to Western Europe for guidelines.  They take the European 
>Parliament's recommendations as the base, as it was with the Slovak 
>treaty.  They also look to Austria, for example, which lost a number of 
>German speaking Austrians in Southern Tyrol to Italy the same time 
>Hungary lost Transylvania and admire the civilized, mutually respectful 
>agreement they reached. They also recognize the role Austria played 
>in bringing both the problem and the suggested solution before the 
>international community and helped slve the problem.  They study the 
>Catalonians, the Flemish people, etc. and hold them up as example for 
>how, in a new Europe, old hatreds are replaced by new solutions.
>
>Wally, if you feel Romania, of which you know a great deal more about 
>than I, is progressing well on the same road to EU and NATO membership, 
>then all is well and our discussion is superfluous. I am not the one you 
>have to convince.  Members of the US Congress, who will soon consider 
>again Romania's MFN status, NATO, EU Parliament members -- they are ones 
>who count.


I will acknowledge that in my lay consideration of the situation, Hungary
has progressed further than Romania. Romania has a lot of difficulties.
This can be laid on the doorstep of their recent history of communism. They
had a doozy of a loony tune leading them. The isolation combined with the
ruination of Romania, set them back much further than the other former
Warsaw Pact nations. Hungary was lucky with its goulash communism. 

Charles Vamossy wrote:
>Just one more thing --  don't you think it might be a good idea for the 
>Romanian Parliament and President Iliescu to rescind the recent law they 
>passed that punishes by 3 years in jail those who display any foreign 
>flag or sing a foreign anthem?  Imagine how embarrasing it may be when a 
>group of Romanian citizens welcoming a group of visiting foreign 
>businessmen by decorating their businesses with a German, French, 
>English, Canadian or US flag are thrown in jail!  (I don't even 
>want to mention the countless US and Canadian college kids roaming 
>Europe in the summer -- mine included --, who in Romania risk 3 years in 
>the can for doing what they generally do -- wear their national flags on 
>their clothes sometimes in the most unusual places.)

I consider it retrograde. It is a foolish waste of resources. Governments
have far more important things to do. Romanians make themselves a laughing
stock by supporting such idiocy. National/ethnic pride is not gained by the
supression of other national/ethnic symbols. It is gained by lifting one's
self up by the bootstraps and impressing others with a valued contribution
to the world at large. 

Charles Vamossy wrote:
>On this last issue -- the flag/anthem quiestion -- could you or someone 
>explain to me what was the serious problem in Romania that required such 
>a serious remedy?  After all, this law was not just a poorly thought out 
>decree by an overzealous local official; it was debated by the 
>Parliament, voted for by the majority of the delegates and signed into 
>law by the President.

Well, we can be sure that the other ethnicities (Magyars, Roma) didn't
support this waste of government resources. This action was solely taken by
ethnic Romanians. It is a cultural manifestation. The world is amused.
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

From: Zamolxe >
Subject: Re: Mr Laws & Quebec and/or Transylvania - Independent country(?!)
Date: Sat Nov 11 05:54:41 1995

Zamolxe >wrote:
>Wishful thoughts, Wally. 

Well of course they are. So?

Zamolxe > wrote:
>I know this is a part of the West's plan for the Eastern Europe - you can
>see it in "real-politik", the ambiguously identified "new world order",
>the attitudes towards Romania and towards its real and false problems,
>images created world-wide about romanians (by the way, I can feel the
>results of these clichees or ambiguous but negative image, almost every
>day of my life), in economic actions (determined by attitudes) vis-a-vis
>different countries (ex. investments, travel visas), the biass in
>mass-media, etc.

Do I detect a dab of paranoia in this post? Poor deluged Romania. Perhaps
you should build a thick wall along the borders to keep the evil nasties
out. 

Zamolxe > wrote:
>For romanians - inside or abroad -, it is understood this is a fate 
>with 2 tragical facets/alternatives : 
>1) disregarded, underestimated and "black-shipped" by the West (but 
>always fighting with the greatest love and hope to be trated more fairly, 
>to be sooner or later integrated, our value and potential prooved);

The *West* will and should continue to do what is in its best interests;
likewise, Romania should do the same. Really? "always fighting with the
greatest love and hope" What a crock! You must be a politician who had
failed to get elected.

Zamolxe > wrote:
>2) possibly destroyed by the russians (if we are abandoned again, as
>after WWII).

"Abandoned?" Perhaps Romania needs to grow up and stop relying on "others."
That is the best way to avoid abandonment. Mark Cristian once made a
comment, criticizing the law which gave the Roma their freedom from slavery
in Romania. He said that it was ill-timed because the Roma had not been
given the opportunity to take on such civic responsibilities, consequently,
Romania suffers from some Roma activities. Perhaps Romanians are not yet
ready to take on the responsibilities of being a global citizen, and should
first pay attention to those societies that have been successful. Of
course, by turning Romania into a fortress that excludes outside
influences, Romania will forever remain pubescent.

Zamolxe > wrote:
>Anyway, in spite of your opinion, we are not at all deserving anyone's
>despise (your's first). 

What "despise" are you talking about?

Zamolxe > wrote:
We are a decent people 

Well of course you are, and deserving of a place in the sun.

Zamolxe > wrote:
and we don't like to see Romania split (separated), 

Nor do I wish to see Quebec seperate from Canada, nevertheless, it is my
wish to make conditions within Canada desireable enough for Quebeckers to
not want to seperate. I don't want them to turn into imitations of Anglo-
Canadians. Likewise, I don't think it would be good for Romania or
Romanians to attempt to turn the Magyars into imitation Romanians.

Zamolxe > wrote:
>neither by external maneuvres (attempts were made, even recently), neither
>by "smart" suggestions made by so called "benevolent, non-prejudiced and
>well-intentioned" people like you.

Bull shit!

Zamolxe > wrote:
>I see this kind of people "with vision" every day, barking about the 
>human rights violation by the barbaric peoples in Balcans - the most
>savage being the Serbs, but what about the others, like those detestable
>Romanians ("..I think they're in fact gypsies"), who are the least 
>civilized, similar to some average africans, etc... -. 

I see little assholes every day, those who are without vision, blind to
possibilities and alternatives. Narrow little minds ready to blame all
misfortune on "others", to denegrate whole peoples. 

Zamolxe > wrote:
>Yes, Transylvania might be encouraged to seccede (economically, and by 
>behind the curtain promisses and alliances, from abroad and not by 
>Hungary alone). It doesn't even imply an act of civilization, it would 
>imply only dirty maneuvres, conspiracies, intrigues, exacerbating old 
>divisions, then blaming them on (newly created, intra-roamnians) 
>divisions, etc. And you defend this ? 

You sound like a broken record of Vatra Romaneasca speeches.

Zamolxe > wrote:
>The Romanians in Transylvania - as I know them - will not want to 
>separate, now or in 100 years from now. 

That's fine with me if it is the democratic will of the people of
Transylvania, Hungarians and Roma included.

Zamolxe > wrote:
>Anyway, I want to finish, 

Please do.

Zamolxe > wrote:
>I don't know if it's worth explaining these too much, you refuse to
>understand or to feel any point made.

I read them, I understand them, I address them. You're just upset because
of your inability to convince me.

Zamolxe > wrote:
>In any case, I still thank you for some good and real objective stands
>taken - I know it was hard, yo had to fake some objectivity, to make the
>..abjections about us more credible -. What shows - I'd really hope to
>be true - is that you are - or could be - a nice fellow.

Don't be so fucking condescending. It's unbecoming of you. Your sincerity
reeks of bigotry.

Zamolxe > wrote:
For this - and for the funny and non-aggressive stuff :
Best regards !
Signed: Khomeiny, Saddam's cousin, Yel-Tzin, Mobutu Sesse Seko 
       (not Secu),etc...
Pick which one you like, or another one, as you wish (but not more abject
than I've already suggested).

Yo secura titty! 
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

In >  (George Szaszvari) writes:

>Personally, I would love to see Transylvania exist as an independent 
>multi-cultural pluralistic state incorporating all the rich diversity
>that makes it such a wonderful place (a diversity that is being 
>eroded by greedy and moronic political pressures and scare-mongering 
>on ALL sides.)

This diversity is no longer what it used to be.  The Saxons have left,
the Jews have left, so Transylvania is inhabited today mostly by Romanians,
Hungarians and Gypsies.

>But this utopian dream is unlikely.....(sigh)...

And the primary reason it is unlikely is that the Romanians, who form the
absolute majority of Transylvania's population (by a large margin) don't
want it.  Looks like a very good reason to me.

Dan
--
Dan Pop
CERN, CN Division
Email:  
Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland

In >  () writes:

>Matyas  > wrote:
>>
>>How many people did gather at Alba Iulia on that 1st of December, 1918 (pleas
e
>>try to document it). What percentage of the Romanians inhabitants of 
>>Transylvania 
>>and what percentage of the total population did this represent? Were they all
 
>>current Transylvanian inhabitants? How did they find out about the event and 
>>how did they get there?
>
>You forgot another important question:  whose army was in control of
>Alba Iulia at the time?

And you both "forget" an important point.  At the time, Transylvania had
an absolute Romanian majority, who had absolutely no intention to be
administrated by the Hungarian state any longer.  Utterly irrelevant,
my point, isn't it?

Dan
--
Dan Pop
CERN, CN Division
Email:  
Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland

In article >, Nguyen Tri Duc 
> says:
>
 wrote:
>>Dan:
>>

>But, John: 
>
>Can a Soviet have buddha-nature?
>
>with gasho
>
>- nguyen tri duc
>



But Johnny & Nguyi, did Buddha teach that men who lusted after men could
really achieve satori or Nirvana? I'm afraid that you fellows are just as 
disoriented about spiritual matters as you are about sexual ones!     
                                       Dan K.

 wrote:
: Alexander Bossy > wrote:
: >
: >	Unlike WWI, WWII did not end with peace treaties.  It ended with the 
: >Western Powers in control of some countries, and the Soviet Union 
: >occupying others.  The Western Powers could not undo Stalin's land-grabs 

: What was the 1947 Paris Peace Treaty all about then?

	Hardly the same thing, and you know it.

: >without going to war with him, and therefore did not do so.  But, that 
: >did not mean that they accepted his actions.  For example, the American 
: >government never recognized the Soviet annexation of the Baltic 
: >Republics - to the extent that we recognized their governments-in-exile, 

: Well, the US also did not approve the Trianon Treaty, yet I doubt it
: would now be for its revision.  The Baltic states did not exactly have
: US encouragement to free themselves from the Soviet occupation.

	I disagree.  We Americans did help and encourage the Balts.  But, 
eager to avoid destabalizing the situation, we tried to make the 
transition peaceful and orderly.  But, I do recoganize that, in the final 
analysis, it was Boris Yeltsin who let them regain their independence.

:  Because
: of strategic importance of Russia and Ukraine, the US can hardly be
: expected to alianate them over some Romanian land claims, regardless of
: their justness.

	True enough.  But we can, and are, helping, by pushing for the 
withdrawal of the 14th Army.  The end of foreign occupation of most of 
Bessarabia is far more important for its populations' long term well 
being than getting every square inch of land back could possibly be.

:  That's just the way things are in politics.

	:-(

	Alexander

There is also an excellent South-Africa based documentation site about
Ken Saro Wiwa at:     http://www.gem.co.za/ELA/ken.html

In article >, Khomeyni  > wrote:
>Ridiculously small point you make, Joe ! 
>Keep on ignoring the important facts presented by Adrian, Dan and the 
>other "olahs"! 
>Is this "smart" tactic working hungarians are bitching lies about Romania 
>(and its people) in front of the world community, ignoring and 
>disrespecting the truth - of course, if it comes from the other side 
>and it does't suite your interests ? 

Salem Aleykum, Imam!

After vading through your long rambling, I am at a loss in finding the
point in all of it?  What the hell are you talking about besides releasing
all the politically correct sounding ballons?  What "important facts"
were presented by Adrian, Dan and the other "olahs"?

Panonescu

On 12 Nov 1995, Nguyen Tri Duc wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

  Even if you had written something, it would have had nothing to do 
with soc.culture.czecho-slovak. Please, stop cross-posting, thank you.


Peter Hakel

When Lithuanians, Latvians or Estonians want to express their views on
their problems, they write to <soc.culture.baltics>. When Russians feel
like: "Vystupat khochu!", they write to as many newsgroups as their
Usenet access program allows them to. Look at the addresses on top!
When writing this response to one of their usual postings, I've
intentionally deleted all the nonsense they've sent out to the world,
but left all the original newsgroup addresses they post their
propaganda to.

This is not to insult the Russians. I know some truly noble thinkers of
Russian descent. But some cultural trends of this nation should be
noticed by rest of the world, I suppose. They desperately need to
occupy, to take over, to possess. If not countries at this time, then
Internet, but they need audience badly and they're ready to force
others to listen to what they have to say. Even when nobody wants to
listen, they'll make you listen! Look at the magnitude of this and
other similar crosspostings! What a nation! A truly world-wide grasp!
Isn't it time to tell such authors: "Leave your garbage at home! We've
had enough of it". And also, we know how to subscribe to other
newsgroups, should we choose so. 

Vladas Mazelis

Wally Keeler > wrote:
>
>Only curious -- were they invited in? I recall one Hungarian posting a line
>about the Hungarians charging into Europe on horseback and how the
>inhabitants were scared shitless. It was a well crafted line. At any rate,
>Atilla is highly regarded among Hungarians. He was a winner. I understand
>the dynamic. Nevertheless, there is the equally valid viewpoint that the
>Hungarians came in uninvited and took over the plains by means of murder.

Gee, Wally!  Should they have waited for the decision of the UN
Security Council?  How did the Normanns get into England?
That's how things were done in those times: by conquest.  
Call it "manifest destiny", if you will.

Joe

 wrote:

>If Sonar5 is even remotely like Chris Moore--then he'll want to blame
>everything from single parenthood to the fact that other people have
>different religious beliefs to fluke accidents on immigrants.
>
>People like them make me ashamed of Americans.
>
>Their stupidity traverses the entire Internet and gives others the worst
>view or aspect of Americans...
>
>
>They exemplify the phrase "Ugly Americans"...

I hereby guarantee that you will meet *at least* one ugly Swede before 
Christmas. If no such thing happens, I invite you to the julebord of 
Nidaros Skytterlag. 

-- 
Arne Kolstad

Peter Aradi  > wrote:

> I don't know how many jews were on the buses, if any, yet we had 
>a mob of several hundred camp residents waving sticks, throwing stones, 
>and yelling anti-semitic slogans at us. Their intent was clearly to 
>cause physical harm. The Austrian police had to protect the buses and the 
>camp administration boarded each bus stating that those who were jewish 
>would be sent to a separate building in the camp for their own protection. 
>I must tell you all that on April 2, 1957 in Salzburg, Austria I was not 
>proud to be a Hungarian.

I don't want to question your story, Peter, but you left a few gaps in
it for me to understand what really was happening there.

First of all, how did the people with the sticks know that the bus was
carrying Jews?  I am asking this because from my own camp expeience ten
years later, I can see some other explanation to what happened there.

When I was in Italian refugee camps in '67, one thing that we noticed
pretty soon was the preferential treatment of Jewish refugees. They were
placed in various apartments in the city and quickly moved to their
final destinations, while the rest of us were put in flee-infested camps
with leeking sheet metal roofs over our heads (in Capua) where we had to
wait months for just interviews with potential host country
representatives.  Because of this, many Hungarians, who never considered
themselves Jewish before, suddenly discovered some Jew among their
ancestors in order to get the preferential treatment.  I knew at least
one guy who was there with a Jewish girl friend and started a process of
Judeization for the same reason.  I know it was so, because amongst each
other, he cynically admitted it himself.

So, from your description, I can imagine also another explanation: the
stick wielding mob was just a bunch of frustrated group of long-time
camp residents, resenting the preferential treatment given to Jews.
If this is really what happened, I don't think the group's anger should
be taken to be anti-semitism as most people understand that term.

Joe Pannon

 () wrote:

>I don't want to question your story, Peter, but you left a few gaps in
>it for me to understand what really was happening there.
>
>First of all, how did the people with the sticks know that the bus was
>carrying Jews?  I am asking this because from my own camp expeience ten
>years later, I can see some other explanation to what happened there.
>
snip ----- snip.
>
>So, from your description, I can imagine also another explanation: the
>stick wielding mob was just a bunch of frustrated group of long-time
>camp residents, resenting the preferential treatment given to Jews.
>If this is really what happened, I don't think the group's anger should
>be taken to be anti-semitism as most people understand that term.
>
>Joe Pannon

Joe:
I do not intend this to be an ongoing thread, my aim was to let you know 
how a frequent lurker on this forum feels about the issue. But I feel that 
I should answer your questions.
1. ALL buses carrying HUNGARIANS to the quarantine barracks and 
destined to the USA were "greeted" by the stick waving, rock throwing mob.
2. The second point you raise, that the mob was a frustrated group of 
long-time residents is absolutely correct. They were stuck in the 
refugee camp. Where I disagree with you is the characterization that 
preferential treatment were given to jews. All refugees desiring to 
immigrate to the USA registered with the Embassy. Out of nearly 100,000 
applicants 32,500 were selected. The criteria for selection was never 
clarified, but having American relatives, sponsors, and a professional 
education were certainly part of it. The PERCEPTION in the Salzburg camp 
was that more jews were selected by the US than the should have. 
Consequently the mob decided to take their frustration out on the bus 
passengers. As stated before, the passengers were a mixed lot with no 
separation by sponsoring organization nor identification by religion.

History is full of incidents where mob frustration leads to violence and 
the nearest and most convenient minority group will serve as the scapegoat 
for whatever real or imagined problems. In East European and Hungarian 
history this scapegoat group was often the local jewry. Today there is a 
live debate in Europe which looking for scapegoats because of the excesses 
of communism, modernization, liberalism, and capitalism. Once again at 
various places jews are among these scapegoats and being blamed for the 
ills of the left, liberalism and communism, as well as the ills of 
capitalism, the so called banking conspiracy. 
So to restate my point: I am not returning to what I am still considering 
my native country, my home country, because I don't want to be the next 
designated scapegoat by any frustrated mob.

Peter Aradi

Please check this out. Latest information tells that the issue is a non 
authorized  re broadcasting for comercial purposes by a local cable 
company in Timisoara. Journalist friends from Timisoara told me that this 
might be related to the dispute of to cable companies in Timisoara. One 
of the companies turned in the other for non authorized re broadcasting. 

Paul Markovits

On 9 Nov 1995  wrote:

> 
> From the news:
> 
> >HUNGARIAN TV BROADCASTS BANNED IN ROMANIA. Hungarian media on 8 November
> >reported that Romania's National Media Council has decided to ban
> >broadcasts by Duna TV, a Hungarian satellite program on cable network.
> >The head of the council told ethnic Hungarian deputy Ferenc Baranyi that
> >no license will be issued to cable television companies "for a certain
> >period of time." He said that according to information received by the
> >council, Duna TV broadcasts create suspicion between ethnic minorities
> >and the majority and are capable of "whipping up artificial tension." --
> 
> What's next?  Jamming the satellite signals like in the good old days
> jamming RFE?
> I wonder what CE will have to say about this.
> 
> JP
> 
> 
>

 () wrote:
>In article 
>,
>Paul S. Markovits > wrote:
>>Please check this out. Latest information tells that the issue is a non 
>>authorized  re broadcasting for comercial purposes by a local cable 
>>company in Timisoara. Journalist friends from Timisoara told me that this 
>>might be related to the dispute of to cable companies in Timisoara. One 
>>of the companies turned in the other for non authorized re broadcasting. 
>
>This would only be an issue if the satellite broadcaster insisted on such
>authorization.  However, that's not the case, since the purpose of the
>broadcast is to reach Hungarians outside Hungary.  The uproar over the
>ban also is an indication that the problem is the Romanian censorship,
>not Hungarian authorization.

	You didn't understand. One company had the authorisation, the other 
didn't. And, of course, both 'struggle' for clients. You understand that 
company #1 (the one with the authorisation) saw an opportunity in the #2 
company's not having the authorisation to try to take the program (Duna TV ?) 
off the #2 company's cable program and to 'force' the hungarian Duna-TV-watcher
 
clients of company #2 to subscribe to #1.

	I thought you knew some economics.


	Cheers.

--

Vlad Romascanu                                      
         '
_[E_O_Msg]_____________________________________________________________________

In the attention of Panonescu, Wally Keeler, "professor" Bela Liptak



From Transilvania's history:

....For 165 years (106 - 271), Dacia's destiny (with a key position in the 
defense system of the [Roman] borders) remains tied to the Roman Empire 
....The influence of the Roman civilisation also extends over the borders 
of the province [of Dacia] to the groups of free Daces from Northern
Transilvania, Central and Northern Moldova, Muntenia [or Wallachia]. 
....After the retreat of the Roman army and administration by Emperor
Aurelian (271 A.D.), the aco-Roman population continues, uninterrupted, on
the same lands, in difficult conditions, its agricultural and shepherd
life. It survived the succession of migratory waves.
....The first Romanian feudal formations are mentioned in the X century in the
intercarpatic space, having as leaders the voivods Gelu, Glad and
Menumorut...
....At the end of the IX century the hungarians settle in
Pannonia which, stopped in their expansion towards the Occident, orient
their conquerant tendencies towards East. During the XI - XIII centuries
they vanquish the resistance of the Romanian statal formations, annexing
Transilvania as an autonomous 'voievodat'. Under Magyar domination until
1541, Transilvania will keep, as a 'voievodat', a pronounced autonomy.  In
oder to consolidate its control in Transilvania, and for the defense of
its borders, the Hungarian Crown will colonize in XII - XIII century
Transilvania with 'sasi' and 'secui' (Szekeli)...
Mihai ['Viteazul' = 'the Brave'] unifies under his authority all three 
Romanian states. In October 1599 he penetrates in Transilvania and 
removes Andrei Bathory [...], realizing, for the first time, the 
political unity of the Romanian countries in a single state. [...] His 
unifying act maintained for centuries its value of symbol of the struggle 
of Romanians for national unity, and the idea of the latin ascendence of 
the Romanian gains large European recognition. During the XVII cent., 
with temporary results, [...] others - Radu Serban, Gabriel Bethlen, 
Matei Basarab, Constantin Serban, Serban Cantacuzino - will try to resume 
Mihai's political program.
1867:	on 5/17 February 1867, the 'Austro-Hungarian' agreement regarding the
	creation of the dualist state 'Austro-Hungary'; in it it was stipulated
	that Transilvania remain incorporated into Hungary, its autonomy being
	canceled. 

	on 17 may/8 june, with the crowning of the emperor of Austria,
	Francisc Iosif I, as king of Hungary, the law regarding the 
	incorporation of Transilvania to Hungary was approved (sanctioned).  

1918:	18 november/1 december, in the Great National Assembly of Alba 
	Iuluia the Unification of Transilvania and Romania was voted, 
	sanctioned (approved) by King Ferdinand the Ist's decree of 11/24 
	december 1918.


	Now, I don't wish to hear any more crap about 'forced 
colonisation' by the Romanians in order to diminish the Magyar 
population, or about 'autonomy granted to Transilvania', its only 
autonomy being of the same kind as that granted by The Gate to Wallachia 
(political, but with control on the ruler), which was anyways rejected in 
1867 by Francisc Iosif. I don't wish to read any more unfounded remarks 
about dictators deciding the Union, and so on.

	Respectfully yours, Vlad.

PS:	If you have other versions, post them. But please, 'professor' 
Bela Liptak, if possible, NOT from you, because I read your oppinions and 
I was both amused and especially DISGUSTED (if you want reasons for my 
desgust, ask me).

PPS:	Sorry for eventual typos, vocabulary errors, etc, I did this in a 
hurry. Have a nice day.

--

Vlad Romascanu                                      
         '
_[E_O_Msg]_____________________________________________________________________
-- 
--

Vlad Romascanu                                      
         '

Article #28296 (Sat Nov 11 1995):
From: Vlad ROMASCANU >
Subject: Re: Dan Pop & Quebec & Transylvania

Wally Keeler wrote:
>It is a unitary state. Yes we know. By the will of the Romanian people, or
>at least by the will of Romanian kings and dictators. In any event, it was
>hardly a consequence of a enlightened democratic decision.

Vlad Romascanu wrote:
>Yes, Wally? Are you sure? I wouldn't, if I were in YOUR place. Were you 
>there?

I didn't see you there. Where were you? In the back row?

Dan Pop wrote:
>>How about other Western democracies, like France, which don't even 
>>admit having ethnic minorities?  Romania is considerably better off WRT
>>minority rights than many Western democracies.  

Wally Keeler wrote:
>How about the Western democracy, like Canada? Canada is vastly better off
>with minority rights than Romania. Can we talk?

Vlad Romascanu wrote:
>Don't forget, Canada is on another continent, it isn't in Europe. 
>Mentalities are different. On the other hand, I am sure Canada had a moral
>debt towards the French 

Yes, Vlad? Are you sure? Were you in the back there also? Actually Canada
had no moral debt. The fact that the French fact was "protected" in Quebec
had much more to do with pragmatism on the part of the British colonizers.
Quebec turned inward to its Catholicism, but when the "quiet revolution"
occurred in the 1960's the rest of Canada took notice. Canada has been
struggling with its constitutional structure ever since.

Vlad Romascanu wrote:
>because, actually, besides the rather few Louisians, the Quebecois are
>about the only French on this continent. In EUROPE this is not the case.
>It is not an excuse, though, but it explains the difference between
>Canada's and Europe's attitudes.

In Europe, there are Germans, Poles, Italians, Spaniards, etc. In France
there is the only French on the continent. In EUROPE it is the case. What's
the diff?

-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

Subject: Re: Mr Laws & Quebec and/or Transylvania

 (Wally Keeler) wrote:
>Transylvanians would consider themselves as
>bilingual and bicultural society that could share the best features of
>each other and in turn exploit good neighbourly relations with Hungary and
>Romania as an equal state. It may be worth encouraging.

>Vlad Rmascanu wrote:
|yeah, yeah, blah, blah... Bilingual society. Of course, how beautiful.

If the thought of a bilingual society is so repugnant to you, then why the
hell are you living in Beautiful Bilingual Montreal? Or Beautiful Bilingual
Canada for that matter? What's your problem? Couldn't stand living in your
monolingual, monocultural Romania?

-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

 (Vladas Mazelis ) wrote:
>When Lithuanians, Latvians or Estonians want to express their views on
>their problems, they write to <soc.culture.baltics>. When Russians feel
>like: "Vystupat khochu!", they write to as many newsgroups as their
>Usenet access program allows them to.

What do you mean "When Russians feel like [complaining] THEY....blah, 
blah"?  Does Daemon have a mouse in his pocket? What do you mean THEY?   
One ignoramous, who happens to be of Russian ethnicity, has been writing
to all the world that Peder Piper, who picked a peck of pickeled peckers, 
is a fag because he disagrees with something this borderline human 
posted.  So all of a sudden its ALL RUSSIANS are attempting hedgenomy on 
the internet!

There is value in this lesson.  I think the issue is TOLERANCE.  When 
Daemon's ad hominem attacks appeared in alt.politics.homosexuality, he
had not called this now infamous Peder a "nigger" or a "kike" or a
"bounced check."  He called him "effiminent," which was not only meant to 
insult him by callinghim gay, but served as a sexist insult to women, in 
general.  Then he railed the vilist filth concerning Peder's sexuality.
THE ONLY complait has come for spaming and now ALL RUSSIANS are spamers.

SOME of you really don't get it do you?  By allowing this pervert of 
letters to insult people using anti-gay/lesbian epethets, we condone
his use of stereotypes to promote a pernicious form of intolerence that  
apparantly remains unconscious among the sleeping masses.

I'll tell you what this spammed thread has to do with YOUR newsgroup, 
whomever you are.  It has to do with intolerance and bigotry.  The same 
spirit at work using anti-gay slurs to insult ex-KGB (or whatever) is now 
at work accusing ALL RUSSIANS of such clap-trap as comes to the ignorant 
mind!

Here is some spam back with AMERICAN PINKO COMMIE FAG spread all over it.

Proud to be gay,
Proud to know the Russians and Chinese are not my enemies,

-nguyen tri duc




 Look at the addresses on top!
>When writing this response to one of their usual postings, I've
>intentionally deleted all the nonsense they've sent out to the world,
>but left all the original newsgroup addresses they post their
>propaganda to.
>
>This is not to insult the Russians. I know some truly noble thinkers of
>Russian descent. But some cultural trends of this nation should be
>noticed by rest of the world, I suppose. They desperately need to
>occupy, to take over, to possess. If not countries at this time, then
>Internet, but they need audience badly and they're ready to force
>others to listen to what they have to say. Even when nobody wants to
>listen, they'll make you listen! Look at the magnitude of this and
>other similar crosspostings! What a nation! A truly world-wide grasp!
>Isn't it time to tell such authors: "Leave your garbage at home! We've
>had enough of it". And also, we know how to subscribe to other
>newsgroups, should we choose so. 


-- 
Looking at the face of the Universe
  An old woman smiles.
     The stars know she has finally lost herself
         In the mirror.

      She drops the rose into her lap,
          And a galaxy of tears flow outward.
             Nebulous winds surge into her breasts 
                Creating another moment of peaceful suffering.

                                             - nguyen tri duc

Announcing this month's Hungarian dance party--


                       Saturday, November 11, 1995
                           

                 Janos Olah (formerly of the Hungarian State           
                 Ensemble) will be teaching dances from
                            Szekelyfold

                 Teaching:     7:30- 9:30pm

                 Open dancing: 9:30-midnight

                            LIVE MUSIC



                    
                            Gypsy Camp
                          3265 Motor Ave.   
                          Los Angeles, CA.
                

                        No partners needed
                        Beginners welcome

                  More info: Debbie Rand (310) 202-9024
                       e-mail 

 (Tor Rognmo) wrote:
>
> There is also an excellent South-Africa based documentation site about
> Ken Saro Wiwa at:     http://www.gem.co.za/ELA/ken.html
> 
> 


The 'judicial' murder of Ken Saro Wiwa should serve to alert the
world's people to the development of fascist regimes in Third
World Countries.  Regimes like the Nigerian Sani Abacha or the
Fujimori regime in Peru, or the Indonesian regime, mass murderers
who imprison and murder all opposition to their fleecing of the 
people of their countries on behalf of imperialist monopolies.

Regimes such as these advocate a 'new' system of repressive laws
and supress the just rebellion of the masses of such countries
by means of the most cruel and arrogant dictatorship and outrages
like the one perpetrated against Mr. Saro Wiwa and his companions.

People of the world must unite and link all these regimes into one
camp of oppression to be fought against by all freedom loving people.

We must also DEFEND THE LIFE of political and revolutionary
prisoners such as the Chairman of the Communist Party of Peru,
the leader of the Peruvian guerrillas, Gonzalo, who the tyrant
Fujimori is keeping in an underground dungeon (designed by US
imperialists) and is threatening daily with his execution.

There is also the leader of Fretilin in Indonesia, Gusmao, also
kept in inhuman conditions by this other fascist dictatorship.

More must be done to alert the people of the world to this
kind of FASCISM engineered by the imperialist monopolies and
supported and fed by the imperialist governments of the world,
as well as by the UNITED NATION (which is fast becoming the
UNITED NAZIS)!


Regards and Solidarity


Committee Sol Peru - London

A. Olaechea (Spokesman)