Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 733
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-07-20
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Cross-cultural possibilities (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Kolbasz, etc. (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: New Thread / Same Old Topic (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: New Thread / Same Old Topic (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Galuska es nokedli (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
6 Hungarian dole (welfare) etc. (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
7 list is growing (mind)  137 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: "Kifli" and "kifli" and other curiosities (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Curious Food Names in Hungarian Cookbooks . . . (mind)  34 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: The list is growing (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Shoes of the Fisherman (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: "Kifli" and "kifli" and other curiosities (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Grammar problem - What do you say in Hungarian?? (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Food fights? I hope not! (Was "kifli" and kifli...) (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Ideological babbling from the radical left (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Lord!, What Have We Become? // Uramisten! Mi Lett B (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Food fights? I hope not! (Was "kifli" and kifli...) (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: Curious Food Names in Hungarian Cookbooks . . . (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Lord!, What Have We Become? // Uramisten! Mi Lett B (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
20 English-Hungarian Spice Dictionary (mind)  72 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: Hungarian dole (welfare) etc. (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: The list is growing (mind)  38 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: IMF conspiracy? (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
24 Re: Galuska es nokedli (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
25 Re: Grammar problem - What do you say in Hungarian?? (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
26 Re: Hungarian dole (welfare) etc. (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
27 Re: A question about pagan heritage (mind)  82 sor     (cikkei)
28 Re: Shoes of the Fisherman (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
29 Re: Grammar problem - What do you say in Hungarian?? (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
30 Re: The list is growing (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
31 Re: Grammar problem - What do you say in Hungarian?? (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
32 Re: Sorry. (mind)  66 sor     (cikkei)
33 Tragedy. (mind)  5 sor     (cikkei)
34 I beg your pardon. (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
35 Re: Ideological babbling from the radical left (mind)  94 sor     (cikkei)
36 Re: English-Hungarian Spice Dictionary (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
37 Re: Hungarian dole (welfare) etc. (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
38 Re: Lord!, What Have We Become? // Uramisten! Mi Lett B (mind)  62 sor     (cikkei)
39 Re: Lord!, What Have We Become? // Uramisten! Mi Lett B (mind)  76 sor     (cikkei)
40 Re: Tragedy. (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
41 Re: New Thread / Same Old Topic (mind)  73 sor     (cikkei)
42 Re: Grammar problem - What do you say in Hungarian?? (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
43 Meggyleves (mind)  41 sor     (cikkei)
44 Re: Lord!, What Have We Become? // Uramisten! Mi Lett B (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Cross-cultural possibilities (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

My daughter just completed a very enjoyable year in Szentes, teaching English a
t
a gimnazium there as a part of the Teach Hungary program.  It was a very
rewarding experience for her, and she was able to absorb some of the culture of
Hungary and begin to pick up the basics of the language.  At the end of this
year she decided (reluctantly, and with many mixed emotions) to end her
participation in the program and return to the United States.

Now, she is wondering what American organizations might be trying to open or
expand their operations in Hungary.  She would be interested in working for suc
h
an organization so that she could make use of her exposure to Hungarian languag
e
and culture, and to have the opportunity to revisit the country on a regular
basis.

Can anyone on this list offer any suggestions as to what organizations might fi
t
into this category?  Or, are you aware of any other lists or sources of this
kind of information?

Any help or ideas would be much appreciated...

Mike Lukas
+ - Re: Kolbasz, etc. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 says...

One of my cousins just dropped in from Budapest (with her newly wed
hubby) and brought back some Kolbaszos cheese!
A few bottles of wine...glug, glug..were also deposited ;-) ..hic

Hey, another cousin is getting married this August (in Szekesfehevar) to
a Brit I know (what a small world!) but what is the usual/traditional
Hungarian present to a female relative from an older male cousin for her
marriage?....please advise and excuse my naivete..

Regards

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ARM Club * C=64..ICPUG * NW London CC
+ - Re: New Thread / Same Old Topic (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>My quarrel with you, Eva, is that if you were the city official to
deceide
>if my parents should get welfare you probably would have denied them.
After
>all, your knowledge of the world informs you that everyone who wants to,
can
>make it on their own.  You did!  So why should it be different for anyone
>else?
>
>But what do I know with my limited knowledge of life.
>
>Joe Szalai

Nothing she has posted so far in this thread would lead a reasonable
observer to this conclusion, Joe. Stop putting words and ideas in her
mouth. After reading your respective accounts, the respect I already had
for both of you was only increased. Why can't you simply accept that
someone with similar life experiences to you might not share your
ideological orientation exactly? Twisting Eva B's words and slighting her
own struggle to survive is outright narcissism on your part.
Sam Stowe

P.S. -- Like he'll accept this little morsel of criticism with anything
resembling grace and humility!

"When you find the one you might become,
Remember part of me is you..."
 -- "Simple Song", Lyle Lovett
+ - Re: New Thread / Same Old Topic (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 says...
>
>        Marie Antoinette? It just shows how little you know about life in
>general. I, like every other Hungarian refugee, started life in Canada with
[snip]...
>        So, please, don't tell me about what is like to be poor. I finished
>all my education without any help from may parents. I began a new life, at
>the age of 20, completely alone and not knowing the language. So, plesase,
>don't lecture me about not understanding what's like to be poor and
downtrodden...[snip]..

Your success story can only be applauded and I admire you for that, but,
hey, guess what, Eva...you know nothing about life! The number of self-
made people in the world is legion...Poor? You really do not have the
slightest idea. Try ration cards in 50s Britain..your self-pity disgusts
me...come over here and see some real poverty, you prize JACKASS. Try
southern Italy, try Greece, Romania, former Yugoslavia, etc, etc. Many
Hungarians who got to Canada or the USA really were very lucky indeed
despite all the mucky jobs (and worse that would make you faint)...
so you had a privileged life in Hungary and had to clean out a few
toilets in Canada...golly, that must have been terrible...who the hell
do you think you are lecturing? YOU IGNORANT POMPOUS DUMMY!!!!

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ARM Club * C=64..ICPUG * NW London CC
+ - Re: Galuska es nokedli (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 says...
>
>At 04:32 PM 7/13/96 +0200, you wrote:
>>Paolo Agostini >
>>"Az egyetlen olasz szuletesu aki a magyar nokedli szaggatasahoz ert..."
>>[The only  native Italian who knows how to make (~ "cut")  Hungarian
>galuska...]
>
>        I wish I could say the same about myself. My attempts have been
>total disasters.
>
>        Eva Balogh

Eva, I have a nokkedli szaggato that my mother sent to me 30 years ago.
Incidentally, here, in Toronto, there is a Hungarian hardware store that
sells it.

Regards, Agnes
+ - Hungarian dole (welfare) etc. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva, you have a very strong opinion about the social
spending in Hungary. You would like to eliminate
the 'welfare state', without realizing, that it is
not a luxuriery there, as you may think it is in some
Western European countries. In Hungary the 'welfare
state' is only a 'survival state' for many, the only
way to survive in the changing conditions of the
country.


        The problem in Hungary is that the dole (Welfare state) was
        so ingrained into the populace that they cannot survive without
        lots of help. Inlfation is a bigger problem. At 25-30% per annum
        inflation rate the fixed welfare (and there are many flavors)
        is not sufficient to allow someone to a decent living.
        [BTW - soon in the USA SS will be insufficient also]
        The problem is how to curtail the appetite of the Hungarian
        public (in one generation?) tfor the welfare state. On
        one hand neither the public nor the private sector can absorb
        the workers needs......the private sector is overtxed and
        is not allowed to grow to generate new jobs. Many are under-
        educated in the NEW jobs and methods.  The governement recently
        actually failed to give raises to several groups of govt workers.
        As a result, I understand, that workers now get off officially
        Friday noon. (It used to happen before but unoffciially).
        Pretty soon, noone will have to go to work, just get paid!

I hope you got my point.
Peter Soltesz
+ - list is growing (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Balogh wrote:

>        I have never done anything of the sort! In fact, I argued against
>such an interpretation by a young man who was enamored by the MSZP a couple
>of years ago. I keep repeating that the Kadar regime's historical evaluation
>of the Horthy regime must be revised further, but not even the Hungarian
>historians of the last thirty years ever called the Horthy regime nazi.

Yes you did argue in both ways. :-)  But let see your own logic first:

>No, anyone who holds ideas very similar to those of the national
>socialists. Also, those who are outright antisemitic. Add to this, people
>who think that Szalasi was the saviour of Hungary. You may also include
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And you also wrote:

"Moreover, he (Horthy) gave his blessing to the formation of a Hungarian Nazi
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
government headed by Ferenc Szalasi, the leader of the fascist Arrow Cross
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
party."(Hungarian Foreign Policy, 1918-1945" by Eva Balogh)

No comment!

>I have known Bela Kiraly for about twenty-five years. I have always
>found him a gentleman and a democrat.

No doubt he was, just as he was a captain in Ferenc Szalasi's regime, which
you called many times nazi. So how would you call such a gentleman? A nazi
gentleman? :-) I think he joined Szalasi because "believed that Szalasi was
the saviour of Hungary". Or was he just an opportunist? You tell me!

>As far as I know in 1945 he and his brigade went over the the Soviet troops
>and that he was a professional military man until 1951.

I like your interpretations. You meant he was a traitor? Hungary was in war
with the Soviets! So he deserted! Your double talk beats common sense. :-)

>I also know that he was falsely accused of crimes against the state and
>received a death sentence, which was later commuted to life.

Yes, there were to cases against him. He escaped the first purge when he
testified against his old teacher Karoly Beregfy as Pal Kornis requested,
and helped to send the old men to the  gallows. And he was not only set free,
then, but became a major in the communist army. Read the memoirs of Pal Kornis.
How would you call someone who betrays his own teacher?

The second time, he got what you described.

>He was released in 1956 without rehabilitation. Otherwise, I know nothing
>about him being a nazi or him being a communist.

Without rehabilitation ? What the heck are you talking about ? Becoming a
general in Imre Nagy's regime is not a rehabilitation? Oh come on...

>I have never said that Bela and I were politically close, simply
>because I don't quite know what his current political views are. We used to
>talk about history and the association and books we were doing together--not
>politics.

How you use to say? Do not play innocent! :-)

> An interesting interpretation of what was going on in 1956. I went
>to the university as soon as I was able to, found the leaders of the
>Budapest Student Revolutionary Council and someone recognized me, asked me
>whether I would go to Gyor; they gave me a piece of paper: member of the
>Budapest  Student Revolutionary Council. If you call that politically
>involved, I guess, I was. After the Russians arrived, that's another story.

But you claimed, that the driving force behind the revolution was nothing
but the effort of the reform communists. Were you such? :-)

>>You wrote about Szilagyi right on HIX.
>>Do you want me to look it up for you? You accused  Radio  Petofi  of
>>spreading info without any proven base. In other world, my report which
>>was broadcasted a month ego in Hungary.

>I sure did. When I heard that the Petofi Radio was planning to do an
>interview with you, I was more than surprised.

See how sure you are now? But a little earlier when I asked you :

>Furthermore, someone threatened to turn in  Mr. Szilagyi at the Hungarian
>Radio Petofi. Do you have any idea who that rat was? And if my accusation
>such a false one, how come that, this rat did not go ahead with her plan?
>You might be able to explain...

You answered:

>No, I am unable to explain any of the above. I did contact Istvan N. and
>I got some information from him. That's all I know.

The "any of the above" covers the threat against Radio Petofi & Mr. Szilagyi.
Your answer was "I am unable to explain", but now you are quick to turn
around. Seems you have learnt a great deal from Bela Kiraly! :-)

>I have always thought that the Hungarian media is not worth a damn:
>journalists publish articles without being 100% sure of their facts.
>They don't doublecheck their sources.

Of course the Hungarian media sucks, according to you. I don't want to get
involved with different local examples, like the tragedy in Oklahoma, when
the whole domestic media talked about arab terrorists.

>And I was right! Considering that no information was available from Argonne
>National Laboratory and the interviewer had no way of verifying your story,

You just don't know what proofs I have. I you don't know what proofs Mr.
Szilagyi had. You just too quick to fire at anybody you don't like. That is
a typical behavior for a tolerant lefty like you! And believe it or not, the
interviewer just verified everything. ;-)

>I thought that it was highly irresponsible to air the interview without
>really knowing what happened at Argonne National Laboratory. I still
>think so, even after reading the text of the interview which was published
>by Joe Pannon on scm. I said at that time that if the interview appears I
>will write to the Petofi Radio and express my disapproval of their
>journalistic practices.

Why didn't you do it? Even those who released the denouncement didn't know
what was going on inside of ANL. So how would you? And if you don't know either
and I didn't give you any of the proofs, than how the heck you come to the
point to accuse someone, who has all the material regarding to this case?
And I tell you why you were coward to openly challenge Radio Petofi: Because
you know that there much more to, what you think you know. I assure you, your
snooping around ANL. harvested nothing but a bunch of false info for you!

>But, I said, I would write only after being able to read the text. Until
>yesterday I was unable to do so. But now I know what transpired and, yes,
>I will write to Petofi Radio and Mr. Arpad Szilagyi and will express my
>disapproval of their shady journalistic practices.

You mean to his supervisor? But just go ahead, make my day. Make a fool out
of yourself. Please let me know how Mr. Szilagyi responded to you. Do not
leave any little piece out of it. :-)

NPA.
+ - Re: "Kifli" and "kifli" and other curiosities (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 says...
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>On Tue, 16 Jul 1996, Steven C. Scheer wrote:
>> Also, Zoli, "nudli" is just another name for "teszta,"
>> for which our elegant name is "metelt."
>
> I must rise to defend to good name of "nudli"! It is a specific
>cigar-shaped species, unlike the ribbon-like "metelt" - neither of which
>is equivalent to the all-encompassing generic "teszta".
>
Sorry, Zoli - what you are talking about is the "krumplinudli" (makkal
vagy prezlivel).  Otherwise, when we ate "makos nudli", it was always
"metelt"!

Agnes
>- --
> Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
>*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
>*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
>*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!
>
>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: 2.6.2
>
>iQBVAwUBMeuTQsQ/4s87M5ohAQHrZQIAtlEuSXp+Ty89IJHzbVRVtGDPNwxAWXQd
>rw3zgbQfTIngR2C/e44bJnLcwFjV6rU++b15j+EdjMvlcTN43f32pQ==
>=Jm3r
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
+ - Re: Curious Food Names in Hungarian Cookbooks . . . (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 says...
>
>At 08:22 PM 7/16/96 GMT, Agnes wrote:
>
>>New subject:  I just learned last year that "csombor"is nothing less
than
>>oregano!  Did you guys/girls knew that?
>>
>        No, I didn't. Most interesting. I didn't even know that
Hungarian
>cuisine used oregano until this morning when I read a Transylvanian
dish,
>asking for "csombor." Needless to say, I skipped "csombor," although
most
>likely my intellectual curiosity should have kicked in, but it didn't.
The
>Hungarian dictionary says that "csombor" is Slavic and it is "folkish
>[ne'pies]. Otherwise, apparently we call it "borsfu"." I have never
heard of
>that either.
>
>        Eva Balogh

Vizvary Mariska uses csombor in various transylvanian recipes like
toltott kaposzta (stuffed cabbage).  In my time (pre-56) our use of herbs
and spices was extremely limited.  However, the modern Hungarian cuisine
is using a lot more, as people wandered out west and brought back new
tastes and the ingredients of new recipes.  I thus learned in Budapest
that a pinch of oregano in the husleves (chicken or beef soup) gives it
an excellent taste.  I use it now much more than previously, when I
thought it goes only into Italian dishes.

Agnes
+ - Re: The list is growing (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At  Wed Jul 17 13:45:37 EDT 1996 in HUNGARY #731 Eva Balogh wrote:
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

>At 10:53 PM 7/16/96 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:
>
>>>The only thing is that Joe Szalai, Tibor
>>>Benke, and Eva Durant hate to admit that the cause of the bolshevik
>>>revolution was war weariness and economic exhaustion, instead of
capitalism
>>>per se.
>>
>>I'll admit it the day you admit that 1956 was a "szabadsa'gharc". ;-)
>
>        Oh, I admit. It was an "icipici szabadsagharc," and hardly anyone
>calls it that.
>
>        Eva Balogh

Whoever can say that must be  an "icipici tortenesz"

Ferenc
+ - Re: Shoes of the Fisherman (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 01:28 AM 7/18/96 -0400, Sam Stowe wrote:

>They were voted into the Hall of Fame the same year as William Lyon
>Mackenzie. Care to enlighten all of us with some examples of the kind of
>behavior I attributed to Kun's Communist followers and Gombos and his
>White Terrorists committed by Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, et. al.?
>What's that? Speak up, thou Nietzschean Superman!

OK.  I concede.  You win this one.

Joe Szalai

P.S.  Dumbfounding, aren't I?
+ - Re: "Kifli" and "kifli" and other curiosities (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article
>,
 says...
>
>Dear Hugh and others:
>It seems to me that you might be referring to the Szekely Gulyas which
>has the same ingredients. BTW Szekely Gulyas was NOT named after a place
>but rather Mr. Szekely who put all kinds of mixture of the following
>items...because he was late and the restaurant/cafe ran out of all of
the
>stuff...he was starving, went into the kitchen and then mixed all the
>stuff together and ate it with bread! AKA Szekely Gulkyas was born...
>Perhaps the Czechs confused his name with Szeged (???).
>
>Greetings, Peter Soltesz.

Not the Czechs.  The Austrians.  In Vienna it is called Szegediner
Gulasch.  Apparently, this is how the called it throughout the Monarchy -
outside of Hungary.

Agnes
+ - Re: Grammar problem - What do you say in Hungarian?? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joseph U. & Sharon W. Hill wrote:
>
> Gabe Bokor wrote:
> >

> > The correct sentence is "sajnos kavi nincs" -- nominative.
> > Kavit is accusative (direct object).
> >
> > GabeGabe!!
>
> The hack with the coffee! How did you manage to write the accented
> letters?


I use a Mac, but it actually doesn't matter as long as both parties
have a mailer that uses MIME encoding, such as Eudora (which I use).
Obviously you were able to read them, which means that you can also
generate accented characters whether you have a Mac or Windows.
People who have non-MIME mailers received kavi as kavi.

\dvvzlettel

Gabe (Gabor)
+ - Re: Food fights? I hope not! (Was "kifli" and kifli...) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear All:

Hugh states:
Such was definitely NOT my intention.  On the other hand, when several
generations of Czechs (or Slovaks, or Austrians, or so-ons: including
even Americans of Scotch-Irish descent?) have made and re-made and
passed on dishes, adapting to local climes, ingredients, and tastes,
_are_ they still "really" Hungarian dishes?
<<>>

I agree, it is correct to assume that the more people use one's inventions
or discoveries the better. The issue raised was that perhaps Hungarians
are poor at MARKETING themselves and their inventions.  Why is it that
most people THINK that a crousant (sp?) is French and not of Hunagrian
origins????? BTW--- even Sara Lee (who sells frozen crousants(sp?) admits
that they originate in Hungary (at times on the back label).

I am happy to see that more nationalities LIKE Hungarian food....all I was
trying tostate is that WE ought to get some credit for it. I would be
like saying tt the Russians invented the airplane...how would you feel
about that??? They use them, they make them, they have names for them,
they did not invent them!!!! Thus the point of my story.

Peter Soltesz
+ - Re: Ideological babbling from the radical left (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 07:03 PM 7/18/96 -0400, Zoltan Szekely wrote:

>Joe Szalai asks:
>> And what do you call 'gentlmen' until they don't prove the opposite?  Or are
>> your terms of endearment reserved only for the 'weaker sex'?
>
>I have somehow different affections towards ladies
>and gentlemen. I can not help, it's probably genetic.

Sexist language is not genetic.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Lord!, What Have We Become? // Uramisten! Mi Lett B (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

George Antony made several good points and observations.

The fact that I sent it in Hungarina has nothing to do with dis-courtesy
I did not have time to translate them and I did not know that this
wasENGLISH ONLY BBS.


Nevertheless, there ar many in  Hungary who want the World Bank, etc. to
erase Hungaries's huge external debt made up by the communists.
Who is askin (The communists - now pinks).

There are many discussions
about waht to do with the economics. Most Hungarians havent got a clue
as to economics!!!!! That inlcudes high level managers. This needs to
change rapidly!
Then maybe the country can go forward!!!
+ - Re: Food fights? I hope not! (Was "kifli" and kifli...) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Right, Eva, and I didn't even think it was a
misunderstanding, just different emphases or aspects.  Hugh, have you
picked up that central European ethnic sensitivity :-) ?

I thought cold cherry soup was west central German, since that's where I
had it first, with a cinnamon stick to stir it with.

I'd like to hear more about the "Slovak linguistic influence" as far
south as Rumania, and agree with Livia that it's a real surprise if
true.  Now in Slovenia there are explanations, but in the Balkans?  How?
When?  (Or was it a mistake?)



Norma Rudinsky



On Thu, 18 Jul 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:

> At 02:22 PM 7/18/96 EDT, Hugh wrote:
>
> >Now it seems Eva Balogh and Norma Rudinsky have experienced a similar
> >misunderstanding.  Pity!
>
>         I think it was easily resolved. I think Norma and I agree that we
> have a common heritage, an especially close one and it is difficult to tell
> the origin of this or that food, this or that custom, this or that folksong.
>
>         Eva Balogh
>
>
> >p.s. for Eva: actually, I really _wanted_ the cold sour-cherry soup
> >recipe!:-))  But thanks!
>
>         Sorry, coming!
>
>         Eva
>
+ - Re: Curious Food Names in Hungarian Cookbooks . . . (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

at 5:32 a.m. 7/17/96/ Eva Balogh wrote in reply to Agnes:
>
>>New subject:  I just learned last year that "csombor"is nothing less than
>>oregano!  Did you guys/girls knew that?
>>
>        No, I didn't. Most interesting. I didn't even know that Hungarian
>cuisine used oregano until this morning when I read a Transylvanian dish,
>asking for "csombor." Needless to say, I skipped "csombor," although most
>likely my intellectual curiosity should have kicked in, but it didn't. The
>Hungarian dictionary says that "csombor" is Slavic and it is "folkish
>[ne'pies]. Otherwise, apparently we call it "borsfu"." I have never heard of
>that either.
>

Some clever HIXTIPP contributor sent in a fairly complete spice and
condiment Hungarian English English Hungarian dictionary (several pages
each).  Maybe someone with the latest  netcruising equipment and the
neccessary skills can recover it from the archives and send it in?  Let's
see whether this new knowledge machine is all it's cracked up to be.

Tibor Benke

+ - Re: Lord!, What Have We Become? // Uramisten! Mi Lett B (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 19 Jul 1996, Bathory Gyorgy wrote:
>     I~m pretty sure, that the majority of the hungarians is convinced,
> that the government and the IMF/WB pushed Hungary into a catastrophe.

 I and most of my collegues had been (a few years ago when I lived home)
making in the ballpark of $100, and many of my acquintances made a lot
less; still very few believed this to be the fault of the IMF/WB
conspiracy - and it's very unlikely that those who do would've grown into a
majority now that era of the state-sponsored propaganda saying so is over...

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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+ - English-Hungarian Spice Dictionary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Tibor Benke was looking for a spice dictionary. I think he ment the
following posting in TIPP #1621 from: 
on Jan 3, 1995.
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

allspice                szegfubors (edes bors)
anise                   anizs
angelica                angelika
arrowroot               marantha-gyoker por (erotaplalek)
basil                   bazsalikom
bay leaf                baberlevel
caraway seed            komenymag
cardamom                kardamomi
caper                   kapri (bogyo)
cascarilla (bark)       kaszkarilla
cayenne                 aranybors (cayenni bors)
celery                  zeller
chilli                  spanyol paprika
Chinese anise           csillaga'nizs
chive                   mete'lohagyma
cilantro                sza'ritott koriander level
cinnamon                fahej
cloves                  szegfuszeg
coriander               koriandermag
cream of tartar         tisztitott borko
cumin                   romai komeny
curry                   keletindiai fuszerkeverek
dill (weed)             kapor
eggplant                padlizsan
fennel (seed)           e'deskome'ny
garlic                  fokhagyma
ginger                  gyomber
hop                     komlo
horseradish             torma
hyssop                  izso'p
juniper                 boroka
lemon                   citrom
lemon rind              citromhe'j
marjoram                majoranna
mint                    borsos menta (borsmenta)
mustard                 mustar
myrtle                  a'fonya
nutmeg                  szerecsendio
onion                   hagyma
orange rind             narancshe'j
oregano                 szurokfu (vadmajoranna)
parsley                 petrezselyem
pepper (black)          bors
peppermint              borsmenta
poppy seed              mak
radish                  retek
red pepper              paprika
rhubarb                 rebarbara
rosemary                rozmaring
saffron                 safrany
sage                    zsalya (salvia)
savory                  borsfu (borsikafu)
sesame seed             szezam
sorrel                  soska
tarragon                tarkony
tartar, cream of        borko, tisztitott
thyme                   kakukkfu
tomato                  paradicsom
turmeric                kurkuma (gyoker)
vanilla                 vanilia
verbena                 vasfu
white pepper            feherbors

> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Reposted
     Barna Bozoki
+ - Re: Hungarian dole (welfare) etc. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:25 PM 7/18/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz wrote:

>        Pretty soon, noone will have to go to work, just get paid!

This is the nightmare of every right-wing thumbnut.

By the way, Peter, are you going to tell the readers of this list who the
'undesirable types' are who go to the Turkish baths in Budapest?  Don't you
think it would be fair to let the readers know the full complement of your
right wing views?

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: The list is growing (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Zoltan Szekely
> writes from Hootieland:

>But, I have different views about the trade unions. In the
>USA trade unions played a different role, but in Europe
>the trade unions became the leading forces of peaceful
>social changes. Revolutionists and trade unionists, oh yeah,
>they are adversaries.

They were here, too, Zoli. Although it's probably a quite a bit outdated
by now because it was first written in the early 1960s, you might want
check out Douglas Hofstadter's discussion of why Marxism and Communism
never really caught on with the American proletariat in
"Anti-Intellectualism in American Life." I think in the early 1930s the
two movements were convergent for a time in the U.S. You even had the
phenomenon of religious radicals like Niebuhr openly voicing the
expectation that the Marxist revolutionary might yet be the savior of
American society. Then FDR got elected and made the government we already
had work for the little guy for a change, Trotsky got an axe in the
noggin, Stalin started murdering Ukrainian kulaks by the millions and the
American intelligentsia sobered up. Still, it wasn't all a waste of time.
We got John Dos Passos' masterpiece "U.S.A." trilogy out of it and Malcolm
Cowley's literary autobiography of the Lost Generation, the first edition
of which contained a final chapter that was a hysterical call to Communist
arms for the American worker. An older and much wiser Cowley deleted the
chapter in later editions from the 1950s on, but it's screamingly funny in
its naivete when you read it today. By the time of the 1968 Democratic
convention in Chicago, you had anti-war college students demonstrating
outside the convention center, marching past Teamsters and construction
workers -- the creme de la creme, as it were, of American trade unionism
-- who would have liked nothing more than for the cops to disappear for
doughnuts and coffee so they could strangle the little anti-American
buggers without interference. America -- what a country!
Sam Stowe

"When you find the one you might become,
Remember part of me is you..."
 -- "Simple Song", Lyle Lovett
+ - Re: IMF conspiracy? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I think there is no conspiracy. They simply don't understand what
problems arise in Hungary (the country, not the list :)) and really
don't care. A healthy man should be about 70 kg. Okay, says IMF,
Hungary is not healthy, weighing only 45, let's put on him 25 kg
of ballast. And so on. A few weeks ago I read an article that the
National Research Council (or something similar, I don't remember)
made a research in Africa, with such remarks that "it's terrible,
I couldn't get a copy of PC-World anywhere on this continent" etc.
They, in fact, were unable to understand the real problems of Africa.
I think IMF and WB does the same. Moreover, "professionals" of IMF
are not really professionals. If they were, they would rather work
in the private sector earnig much more. But, IMF is a "rubber bone",
we can chew forever.
+ - Re: Galuska es nokedli (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 01:36 AM 7/19/96 GMT, Agnes Heringer wrote:

>Eva, I have a nokkedli szaggato that my mother sent to me 30 years ago.
>Incidentally, here, in Toronto, there is a Hungarian hardware store that
>sells it.

I love nokkedli but I don't have the patience to make it.  If I had a
nokkedli szaggato...  Hey!  Where is this place?  Can you give us the
store's address and phone number.  I live 100KM west of TO and would love to
buy a nokkedli szaggato next time I'm in the city.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Grammar problem - What do you say in Hungarian?? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Gabe Bokor  > wrote:
>Joseph U. & Sharon W. Hill wrote:
>>
>> Gabe Bokor wrote:
>> >
>
>> > The correct sentence is "sajnos kavi nincs" -- nominative.
>> > Kavit is accusative (direct object).
>> >
>> > GabeGabe!!
>>
>> The hack with the coffee! How did you manage to write the accented
>> letters?
>
>
>I use a Mac, but it actually doesn't matter as long as both parties
>have a mailer that uses MIME encoding, such as Eudora (which I use).
>Obviously you were able to read them, which means that you can also
>generate accented characters whether you have a Mac or Windows.
>People who have non-MIME mailers received kavi as kavi.

Not always, I recived k<black square>v<black square>

-James
+ - Re: Hungarian dole (welfare) etc. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Fri, 19 Jul 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> By the way, Peter, are you going to tell the readers of this list who the
> 'undesirable types' are who go to the Turkish baths in Budapest?  Don't you
> think it would be fair to let the readers know the full complement of your
> right wing views?
>

I don't know why Peter Soltesz does not like the Turkish Baths in
Budapest, but I can tell why I don't like it. (e.g. the Rudas). It is
depressing to see the many old sick people. These baths have warm water
with supposedly healing qualities, therefore doctors send people there for
cures. It is like visiting a hospital ward. I have nothing against old and
sick people, but I prefer to swim in more attractive company.

Barna Bozoki
+ - Re: A question about pagan heritage (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

The naivite with which the majority of
>Hungarians adopted the ideas of Christendom lead to the relatively rapid
>demise of the Arpad dynasty, as the ruling families that knew the game for
>what it was, divided and weakened them.

The Arpads lasted for more than 400 years. They forced the Hungarians to
adopt Christianity. The family died out. How do you relate this problem to
Christianity?

  The Hungarians and whoever their ancestors might have been,
>seem to have the bad luck of always adopting a new way of life shortly
>after it begins its decline.  Thus horse and cattle pastoralism was in its
>heyday in 500 b.c. in the glory days of the Scythians, but the Hungarians
>probably adopted it sometime in A.D.;

The Hungarian tribes of the Conquests did not share the fate of earlier
barbarians because they were not nomadic but semi-nomadic people familiar
with both animal husbandry and agriculture.
This knowledge guaranteed their economic survival even after they could no
longer rob their neighbours. Christianity took care of the rest.

 >Christian feudalism

What is that? St Stephen established a centrally controlled state. There
was never Western-type feudal state in existance in Hungary.

   Prince Geza and his son St. Stephen were men of vision; men who
>>realized that the only road for survival was--to use a current
>>phrase--"European integration."

I could not agree with you more. With the decline of Rome the idea of
European unity did not emerge until the rise of Napoleon and later  of
Hitler. Hungary became interested in joining the EC after disasterous
memberships in Nazi and Soviet empires.

>>>Although in this case I don't know what was so mysterious.  A rego"s (bard)
>>>or a ta'ltos (shaman) had certain traditional knowledge that I, for one,
>>>would like to know more about -- it might help us see more clearly who we
>>>really are.
>>
>>        Unfortunately, I don't remember the author's name but there was a
>>well known historian (maybe late 19th century) who was expert on such
>>things. In my first year of university in Budapest, I read several articles
>>and books by him. So, if you want to know more about shamanism--there is
>>plenty of information.
>
>If you do recall that author sometime, please tell me.  Though I know a
>little bit about shamanism as such, what I am interested in is the
>Hungarian version circa 900 after it had absorbed the historical experience
>of the previous couple centuries;  and also what little must remain of it
>among more remote Magyar populations.

>> And of course, if as a personal hobby you want to be
>>a shaman, that's fine with me, but somehow I don't think that the shamans'
>>knowledge would be terribly useful to us, at least not in practical terms,
>>at the moment.
>
>I think you would be suprised.  But I do not mean we can take the formulas
>and their explanations wholecloth and literally, instead we should try and
>interpret them for our own situation, integrating what has been learned
>since.  Shamans were the first artists and intellectuals.  Before writing
>was invented, they were the memory and conscience of their social group.
>We have much to learn from them about the world, about our past, and
>ourselves.  (See Mircea Elidae and Joseph Campbell).

We know very little about the shamans of the Magyars. The Hungarians were
not literate in those days. A few lines about them in foreign sources or in
books written hundreds of years later makes it difficult to draw sweaping
conclusions. The Christian state persecuted them and they survived as the
bards of the villages.

Generalizations should be based on the careful use of our knowledge of the
past. What can one learn from the comparison of the samans, anti-Christ,
Rakosi and King Matyas?

Peter I. Hidas

Hungarian Studies
Department Of Russian and Slavic Studies
McGill University
Montreal, Quebec, Canada

+ - Re: Shoes of the Fisherman (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>OK.  I concede.  You win this one.
>
>Joe Szalai
>
>P.S.  Dumbfounding, aren't I?
>
>
>

This is some kind of trap, isn't it?
Sam Stowe

"When you find the one you might become,
Remember part of me is you..."
 -- "Simple Song", Lyle Lovett
+ - Re: Grammar problem - What do you say in Hungarian?? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
    (James Macgill) wrote:
>In article >, Gabe Bokor  > wrote:
>>I use a Mac, but it actually doesn't matter as long as both parties
>>have a mailer that uses MIME encoding, such as Eudora (which I use).
>>Obviously you were able to read them, which means that you can also
>>generate accented characters whether you have a Mac or Windows.
>>People who have non-MIME mailers received kavi as kavi.
>
>Not always, I recived k<black square>v<black square>
>
>-James

Yes, that's why most of us don't use this feature even if we could.


Szaszvari Peter
(http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm)
+ - Re: The list is growing (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 19 Jul 1996, Stowewrite wrote:

> In article >, Zoltan Szekely
> > writes from Hootieland:
> They were here, too, Zoli. [...]

 After another kind reader addressing me Zoltan, and now you addressing my
drusza Zoli, I should point out that I've always used the short form (as
is shown both in my signature and username fields) while he seems to
prefer the official long version. Let's try to keep it this way - I dread
nothing more than being confused with my fellow Segedinsky contributor
;-)...

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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+ - Re: Grammar problem - What do you say in Hungarian?? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 19 Jul 1996, Peter Szaszvari wrote:
> >>People who have non-MIME mailers received kavi as kavi.
> >
> >Not always, I recived k<black square>v<black square>

 I did receive "kavi" as "kavi", however that's hardly what the sender
meant ;-(; the original copy came here with gibberish codes in place of
what was supposed to be the accented letters.

> Yes, that's why most of us don't use this feature even if we could.

 The fact is that generally speaking it just doesn't work across the
email/Internet system as a whole. Please do not try it, or if you insist be
aware that it is coming thru illegible to many readers!

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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+ - Re: Sorry. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Andy Kozma wrote:
>
>>I can not undestand how so higly educated people can be so vicious toward
>>each other,since someone has different outlook on life or the subject on
>>hand.Tham comes quotes from country or rock singers,to strenghten the point.
>
>Hmm, it is enough to read his own posting from few days earlier:
>
>>It is a blessing in disguise that Peter A Nemenyi lost his job.At least
>>now we can read his eloquent writing either in Hugary or Forum.
>>Now he has all the time to educate us poor pots.
>
>Is it enough for explanation?
>
>>I can not undestand how so higly educated people can be so vicious toward
>>each other,
>
>Yeah, like being happy over someone's losses, like above?
>
>>It is difficult to understand what goes on beetween Eva and NPA.the
>>later accuses her for spying, and a reason he lost his job.
>
>Accusing? Did not Eva agreed, that she was spying on me? And Andy should
>not twist anything around. I never mentioned that her spying was
>the reason for loosing my job. The spying happened after. So stick
>to the facts please.
>
>>This is supposed to be an eloquent thread.I wish the tone would calm
>>down,and maybe look at Peter Hidas notes and take example from him.
>
>Andy, should realize, that I did not start this thread. He himself did
>it, and now preaching peace. But he is right though. The list should
>forget about this case as long as it is still pending.
>
>>This does not mean anyway shape or form that if someone is accused of
>>distorting facts shouldn't have an opportunity to awnser.
>
>You mean even I should have the opportunity? That sound mighty appealing
>to me!
>
>>It is alarming that somebodys resignation of his job should start
>>wispers,accustaions back satbbing etc.
>
>It was not just a resignation. It was a forced termination. And the loss
>of job did not start any whisper. What started it was the fact, that some
>of us is back stabbing those whose political views are different.
>
>>I s this a Hungarian sickness?
>
>It depends, if the denouncers were Hungarians?! ;-)
>
>>Maybe I should do as Mr.Benke did,threaten to dissacoate myself,and than
>>come back.No I will probaly stay,so I can read all the goodies wich will
>>appear. Thanks' for listening:Andy Kozma (my real name)
>
>Come back to where? To the States? :-)
>
>NPA. (and that is a real name too)
>
>To NPA:twist and turn and do what you do best.Just a quick awnser:no I was
never in hte States except for visits.Yes I enjoyed it my Son makes a living
there too.
On the other hand,maybe it is too personal to ask,but what are your means
now to live in the Stats,after your forced resignation?And on the other hand
maybe you could go back whereever  they take you? ;-)Good luck.
A.K.
+ - Tragedy. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I feel extremly sorry for those innocent people whose life was lost in the
TWA plain crash.I did not know anyone on that plane but a tragedy hits home.
My deepest symphaty for all there families.
God Bless.
Andy K.
+ - I beg your pardon. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Andy Kozma wrote:

>On the other hand,maybe it is too personal to ask,but what are your
>means now to live in the Stats,after your forced resignation?And on
>the other hand maybe you could go back whereever  they take you?
;-)Good luck.

You are right! It is too personal. So please don't ask. ;-)

NPA.
+ - Re: Ideological babbling from the radical left (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Well, Zoli, if you give me a decent opening, I am quite willing to
sit down with people and have a reasonable dialogue about a very legitimate
topic.

At 07:00 PM 7/18/96 -0400, Zoli Szekely wrote:
>>         Me, a right-winger? You must be either out of your mind or you are
>> ignorant.
>>
>>         Eva Balogh
>>
>Eva, you have a very strong opinion about the social
>spending in Hungary

        That, however, doesn't make me or anybody else a rightwinger. As the
matter of fact, the rightwingers write like Erzsebet Gidai and others who
complain most bitterly against reducing the role of the state.

>You would like to eliminate
>the 'welfare state', without realizing, that it is
>not a luxuriery there, as you may think it is in some
>Western European countries.

        Let's divide this sentence into two parts. (1) the claim that I want
to eliminate the welfare state. I don't want to eliminate the welfare state
but I would restrict social benefits only to those who are in need. And even
then it would not be a permanent state of affairs--like welfare for life
(for generations actually)--in the United States. The "entitlements" [alanyi
jogon] are the curse of the system: all people were getting child support,
all mothers were entitled to 75 percent of their pay for three years if they
produced a child, all people on pension received money for their funeral, no
student had to pay tuition at the college level, and one could go on and on.
And while people refuse to part with these entitlements, they don't seem to
realize that someone has to pay for all these benefits. And who pay for
them? Themselves. And they pay dearly. Especially now that the Hungarian
government no longer can borrow immense ammounts from the west in order to
finance this system, with its top-heavy bureauracy. Not only that, but these
loans must be paid back by the next generation while the parents were
enjoying the benefits of gulyas communism.

        I have another problem with these social benefits: the corruption
which it produces. They are fertile grounds for fraud. The number of people
receiving disability benefits are staggering. Getting disability payments
are often simply question of bribing the doctor. Of course, there are people
who are truly disabled but many of them are not and, in fact, while
receiving disability they work either legally, part-time, or illegally in
the black market economy. The disability payment is simply a little extra
money for life. Disabled people were entitled to import cars free of duty.
Do I have to explain what happened next? Mercedeses and BMWs were imported
by the so-called disabled. The cars were purchased on other people's money
and the cars passed on to them for a nominal fee. And one could continue ad
infinitum.

        The second half of the sentence: (2) the welfare state "is not a
luxuriery there, as you may think it is in some Western European countries."
I'm afraid it is a luxury which even much richer western European countries
can ill afford, never mind Hungary. It is enough to read the daily papers
and see what's going on in Sweden, in France, in Germany, in Belgium, and so
on and so forth. Welfare states, in the western European sense, are proving
to be not only too costly but also incapable of competing in the world
economy. According to the latest assessments, Germany stands *twenty-second*
on a list of countries with robust economies (Singapore and the United
States are leading the pack) when it comes to competetiveness. Also, all
these countries have staggering budget deficits. The shackles of excessive
social legislations make the small businesses practically incapable of
survival. Just ask one of our very intelligent contributors from Germany who
is a dentist about the impossibility of running a small practice with the
restrictions on hiring and firing.

>In Hungary the 'welfare
>state' is only a 'survival state' for many, the only
>way to survive in the changing conditions of the
>country.

        Admittedly, it will take perhaps two decades, maybe longer, before
we will have a different public attitude toward personal responsibility. As
it stands now (and this is an undesirable inheritence from "existing
socialism") the general attitude is that somone else will take care of
things instead of "we, the people." Hopefully, this is going to change--it
has to change and the sooner it does the better it will be.

>Abolishing social rights of people and make them
>overly vulnerable in a 'wild capitalistic' environment,
>is not reminding me to any kind of leftish thinking.

        "Wild capitalistic" environment--again a favorite expression in
Hungary. Yes, it is true that legislations necessary to control business
practices are not in place yet. I hope that sooner or later they will be in
place. But, at the same time, you cannot burden business to such an extent
that they are incapable of surviving. The result will be, as it is already
in many countries, including Germany, that business expansion will take
place outside of the country. In Hungary's case, it might mean the slow-down
of foreign investment which, right now, is the only salvation of the economy.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: English-Hungarian Spice Dictionary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 08:41 AM 7/19/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Tibor Benke was looking for a spice dictionary. I think he ment the
>following posting in TIPP #1621 from: 
>on Jan 3, 1995.
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

>chive                   mete'lohagyma

        Most likely this is the elegant name of it and it is correct but, I
must admit, in the good old city of Pecs, which 150 years ago was as German
as Munich, we used to call it "snidling." I think we still do.

>poppy seed              mak


        Let me share with you a very funny story. The first Christmas in
Canada was approaching in 1957 and, as I mentioned, I lived with a very nice
Hungarian-German-Transylvanian Saxon family. Christmas Eve afternoon I
received a telephone call from my landlady: "Eva, I forgot to buy some
"ma'k," for the Christmas "bejgli," would you stop at the European
Delicatessen and buy some!" "Sure," I said, "and, by the way, what is the
English equivalent of "ma'k"? "Poppy seeds." I repeated several times:
"poppy seeds, poppy seeds," and at five o'clock I was heading to the
European Delicatessen, then the only shop in town, catering to European
taste and owned by a Polish couple. Long, long line of people, of course,
before Christmas, but at last it was my turn: "May I have . . . may I have .
. ." "What?" said the woman behind the counter. "Well, it is small and
black," "Pepper?" "No, not pepper." In short, I completely lost the word!
The lady behind the counter waited quite patiently but eventually she said:
"Say it in your own language!" "Oh, it won't help you, it won't help you at
all." She: "Say it in your own language." At last I whispered" "ma'k." She
turned on her heels, picked up a package of poppy seeds and handed it to me.
It turned out that "ma'k," is "mak" in Polish, too!

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Hungarian dole (welfare) etc. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

What's truly needed in Hungary (and everywhere) is for everyone to be
enlisted in their fullest capacity to rescue the country.  That means
basically "We're all in this together," which also means treating everyone
as authentic citizens, no corruption, rising to the challenge, etc.
People *do* rise to challenges if they're made to feel they have it in
them (which they usually do).  Why does this only happen during wars?

Nothing in the history of Hungary can serve as a precedent for this, but
again, it's the only thing that'll work.  Why should anyone treat the
country with respect if everyone around them is grabbing only for
themselves?  And those who have never developed the abilities to operate
this way are brushed off like flies?

Does this sound suspiciously like socialism?  In one form or another, it's
the only viable way--for the whole world: Outer growth in moderation;
inner growth in abundance.  The reverse is simply untenable anymore (if it
ever was tenable).

Burian
+ - Re: Lord!, What Have We Become? // Uramisten! Mi Lett B (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:42 AM 7/19/96 +1000, George Antony wrote:
>Peter Soltesz wrote:
>
>> >>>> Dear Readers:
>> I am enclosing two Hungarian Language articles without comment.
>> The first article is written by an american emigre,
>> while Gidai lives in Hungary.

>In this case it is a pity too, for many readers cannot read the typical
>manifestations of a distinct, but thankfully small, section of Hungarians.
>These people are quite insular from world events, they have an irrational,
>instinctively anti-capitalist stand that is closest to that of right-wing
>agrarian socialism [NOT a mistake, but accepted taxonomy !].  All rather
>ironic for people many of whom at the same time live in the US and are
>vocal supporters of the US system

        I have to concur with George: these two pieces are typical of a
certain segment of Hungarian "intellectual circles." They are not only
typical in contents but also in style: a kind of hightened, demagogic,
pathetic exaggeration of the worst kind. It appeals to the worst impulses in
people: nationalism, self-pity, the notion of hopelessness, hatred of
foreigners, hatred of capitalism, and so on and so forth.

        What I find especially interesting is Erzsebet Gidai's career. She
is a so-called economist, but considering that she got her degree in the
Soviet Union in the 1960s I doubt that she knows much about economics as we
think of economics. She was also a member of the party's institute whose
official journal was the *Tarsadalmi Szemle,* the "ideological journal of
the MSZMP [Magyar Szocialista Munkaspart]." I do have rather vivid
recollections of the writings in *Tarsadalmi Szemle* from the 1970s when I
leafed through some of the issues. Put it that way, one couldn't be a member
of that institute without "impeccable" political credentials. Now, she is
one of the chief advisers to Jozsef Torgyan, head of the Smallholders'
Party. However, I don't find this terribly surprising. Nowadays right and
left demagoguery are hardly distinguishable. Any of the two articles
republished by Peter Soltesz could have appeared in *A Szabadsag,* the daily
paper of today's MSZMP--the communist party of Hungary today.

>Where I
>attended economics courses in Australia, such an essay would not have been
>accepted from a green first-year student.

        Yes, but she is very popular with people with nationalistic
inclinations. I consider her one of the worst representatives of a certain
extremist mentality, someone who has no difficulty switching sides. She has
also been championing the reconstruction of some kind of economic union of
Eastern Europe and the former Soviet lands in order to save the Hungarian
economy from western competition.

>Remaining at a very emotional level, both articles clearly aim at presenting
>as negative a picture of the Hungarian present as possible, without any
>serious analysis of the causes and putting forward no alternative solutions
>whatsoever.

        These kind of writings do an awful lot of harm for the cause of
Hungarian democracy because both blame the demise of existing socialism and
the introduction of democracy and market economy for Hungary's current
problems. But we know that the economic problems of today have been rooted
in forty years of existing socialism and heavy borrowing from the west which
made Hungarian gulyas communism possible.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Lord!, What Have We Become? // Uramisten! Mi Lett B (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:29 AM 7/19/96 GMT+100, Gyorgy Bathori wrote:

>Anyhow I have to ad that my salary is equal to 150$ per month. Most
>of my colleagues get even less. The maintenance of my household and
>family requires about 350$ per month. I have one wife and three
>children, so I~m even more "economic" than Gidai`s lower limit. Me
>and my colleagues must go regularly abroad for better salary and in
>order to spare some money. Now I use, that money, what I collected
>during my stay in Italy. This money is enough for the next August. In
>September I have to go back and collect money again. Still we try
>return to home and try to continue teaching medical students.

        I'm pretty sure that you won't like what I'm going to say, but I
feel that I have to in order to keep things in perspective.

        I will readily grant it that Hungarian public servants--which also
include doctors and teachers--are miserably paid. Moreover, in the last two
years real wages have been purposely pushed down in order to reduce
inflation. Taxes are unspeakably high, including social security and medical
insurance. By the time you add up all deductions, 65-70% of people's salary
is gone!! The value added tax is also uncredibly high: on most articles 25%
and includes even such items as books, clothing, etc.

        But one must understand (and I don't really expect you to understand
because this would be too much to ask) that there are too many civil
servants, including doctors and teachers. I know that elsewhere (Szalon) you
stated that doctors are overworked in Hungary, but, as a result of some
investigation on my part, I am by now almost convinced that this is the
result of the faulty structure of medical care in Hungary rather than a
scarcity of doctors. The fact is that Hungary has more doctors than most
countries. I don't have figures at my fingertips but very few countries have
as many doctors (per population) as Hungary. But then why are they
overworked? First, because doctors perform certain tasks which are performed
elsewhere by nurses, physical therapists, technicians, and so on and so
forth. Hungary has, to the best of my knowledge, four medical schools and
the graduating students don't find jobs. Yet, as far as I can see, there is
no attempt at reducing the numbers.

>    I~m pretty sure, that the majority of the hungarians is convinced,
>that the government and the IMF/WB pushed Hungary into a catastrophe.

        Maybe you are right and the majority of the people think so but
thinking people with a modicum knowledge of economics do not. The IMF and
the WB simply want Hungary to reduce its budget deficit, which last year was
over 8% of the total. This year, they may have reduced it just over 6%
instead of the 4% which was the prerequisite for loans from these
institutions. The burden of the "premature welfare state," as Janos Kornai
called the Hungarian welfare system, is so enormous that it has a dragging
effect on the whole economy. No economic health can be expected until the
expenses of the state are that high. Unfortunately, it is the public
servants who carry some of the burden of deficit reduction. And, of course,
cuts in social services must be also made, in order to lighten the burden.
The governments (Antall/Boross/Horn) are all guilty of dragging their feet
at downsizing the social burden and, of course, one can understand why.
These measures are highly unpopular. Lajos Bokros, the former minister of
finance, was depicted as devil incarnate because he was the first one who
actually tried to dismantle the old premature welfare system. A year later,
he resigned because the cabinet was not really supporting his measures.
Prime Minister Horn was happy to get rid of him. The new finance minister,
Peter Medgyessy, is less controversial; nay, actually liked by the
population, but I doubt that he will be as persistent in his insistence to
reform the whole government administration as his predecessor.

        The Hungarian economy has been performing very poorly in comparison
to other former satellite countries. Soon, Hungary can be lumped together
with Romania and Bulgaria (actually Romania is doing much better lately but
it is economically less well developed than Hungary). And I really would
like to press on you, Gyorgy, that real economic growth cannot be achieved
without fundamental restructuring of the non-private sector. The sooner the
better. The Hungarian population--not surprisingly mind you--doesn't want to
swallow the very bitter medicine. But perhaps it is better to swallow that
medicine with one big gulp than in small doses, or a little here and a
little there while the body is seriously ailing and getting closer and
closer to death.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Tragedy. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 03:57 PM 7/19/96 -0400, Andy Kozma wrote:
>I feel extremly sorry for those innocent people whose life was lost in the
>TWA plain crash.I did not know anyone on that plane but a tragedy hits home.
>My deepest symphaty for all there families.
>God Bless.
>Andy K.

        It is absolutely terrible to think that 200 some people board a
plane at eight o'clock in the evening to go to Paris--and a few minutes
later they are all dead. Including 16 high school students, members of a
French Club and their five chaperones. It is so easy to imagine yourself
being on that flight.

       Eva B.
+ - Re: New Thread / Same Old Topic (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:04 PM 7/18/96 -0400, Sam "Simple Song" Stowe, stupefyingly wrote:

<snip the cool stuff that I wrote>

>Nothing she (Eva Balogh) has posted so far in this thread would lead a
>reasonable observer to this conclusion, Joe.

I guess you won't let me hide behind the fact that I was using the
subjunctive tone in a conditional sentence.  But such is life.  I'll just
have to use common language that you can understand.

Because Eva Balogh made only one post to this thread, a reasonable observer
would be rather useless.  I'd be interested in the observations of a
seasoned observer.  Such a person would see that regardless of the thread,
Eva Balogh and I always end in a slugfest over the pros and cons of the
market economy, social programmes, and politics in general.  And,
invariably, I'd be in favour of good social programmes and services and
she'd be opposed.  Her opposition comes from her belief that the nation,
country, taxpayers, or what-have-you, can't afford the programmes.  She
believes that these social programmes, if not severely reduced, will
devastate the national economy and there will be even fewer programmes to go
around.  On a superficial level her arguments are not bad.  But lets go
beyond the superficial.

Why is it that the economy always has to be 'fixed' on the backs of those
who have the least?  'Existing socialism' required the working class (oh, my
God, I used that expression) to make sacrifices to build 'socialism'.  Some
workers went above and beyond what was required to help fulfill those silly
five year plans.  And they were recognized by the state by getting a piece
of paper that they could put on their wall.  It was a bit like the
McDonald's "employee of the week" gimmick.  For extra work and dedication,
workers were rewarded with a piece of paper with no cash value.  Meanwhile,
the elite, and the apparatchiki accumulated money and power.

The demise of 'existing socialism' in Hungary did not mean the demise of the
existing elite.  How could it?  They had the money and the power.  'New'
leaders emerged from this same class.  They understood that the Hungarian
economy had to be fixed if it ever wanted to compete in the new world order.
It had to be fixed if the elite wanted to hold on to the wealth they had
accumulated in the previous system.  And how were they to hold on to their
wealth and fix the economy?  Simple.  Increase taxes and greatly reduce
social programmes and benifits for the middle and working classes so that
the debt can be paid off.  Once again the weakest members of society are
called upon to make sacrifices to save the national economy.  "Plus la
change..."
I just don't buy into their utopian dream of sacrificing today so that the
future will be bright.  Next they'll be showing us the shining path.

>Stop putting words and ideas in her mouth.

I wouldn't put anything in her mouth.  Trust me on this.  I'm Canadian.

>After reading your respective accounts, the respect I already had
>for both of you was only increased. Why can't you simply accept that
>someone with similar life experiences to you might not share your
>ideological orientation exactly?

Politics.  She's an intelligent and articulate proponent of her views.  My
life experiences, although somewhat similar, have given me different views.

>Twisting Eva B's words and slighting her
>own struggle to survive is outright narcissism on your part.

You'd better explain this one, Sam.  What on earth do you mean?

>P.S. -- Like he'll accept this little morsel of criticism with anything
>resembling grace and humility!

You're wrong, Sam.  I can accept this criticism with grace and humility.
But grace and humility are not 'crazy glue', and if my lips need to keep
flapping, then so be it.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Grammar problem - What do you say in Hungarian?? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

James Macgill wrote:

> >> Gabe Bokor wrote:
> >> >
> >
> >> > The correct sentence is "sajnos kavi nincs" -- nominative.
> >> > Kavit is accusative (direct object).


> >People who have non-MIME mailers received kavi as kavi.
>
> Not always, I recived k<black square>v<black square>


But I received your quoteback with the correct diacritics. Apparently
they were there all the time, just waiting for correct decoding <g>.

Gabe
+ - Meggyleves (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

..or sour-cherry soup.

I am out-of-town on a weekly basis for a while, so on Friday nights I get a
healthy portion of e-mail. It's hard to take this concentration of wisdom.
The biggest surprise? Joe Szalai concedes (on this one!). Dumbfounding, indeed.

Here are two versions of the meggyleves:

1. As my wife makes it, with her words: take three glass containers (about
1/2 liter) of preserved pitted Morello Cherry in its own juice (it's sold at
ethnic food stores). Empty it in a pot and add one more container of water.
Add sugar, lemon juice and a little salt. Bring to a boil.

 Make something called ereszte'k, as follows: mix an egg yolk with a
teaspoonful of flour. Slowly add to it from the hot soup mixture (while
continuously mixing) until it becomes a paste. Then very slowly ad this to
the soup, while continuously mixing. Bring to a slow boil. Chill, eat (goes
very fast).

What can go wrong: if you  do the eresztek part too fast, "o2sszemegy"
(according to Orszagh: it curdles???).

Oh yes, the quantities: she doesn't know. Keep tasting and whatever is
missing...(her words).

2. From Paul Kovi's Transylvanian Cuisine (I did not try it):

2 lbs sour cherries, cleaned, washed, and pitted
1/2 cup sugar
salt to taste
juice of 1 lemon, or to taste
2 egg yolks
1 cup light cream

Boil 2 quarts of water in a pot and add cherries. Cook for 10 minutes,
gradually adding the sugar, salt and lemon juice.

Mix the egg yolks with cream and add to the soup. Heat soup on low, stirring
constantly until it thickens. Serve soup hot (hot???????) or chilled.

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: Lord!, What Have We Become? // Uramisten! Mi Lett B (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Anyhow I have to ad that my salary is equal to 150$ per month. Most
of my colleagues get even less. The maintenance of my household and
family requires about 350$ per month. I have one wife and three
children, so I~m even more "economic" than Gidai`s lower limit. Me
and my colleagues must go regularly abroad for better salary and in
order to spare some money. Now I use, that money, what I collected
during my stay in Italy. This money is enough for the next August. In
September I have to go back and collect money again. Still we try
return to home and try to continue teaching medical students.
    I~m pretty sure, that the majority of the hungarians is convinced,
that the government and the IMF/WB pushed Hungary into a catastrophe.

dr Gyorgy Bathory

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