I just dropped in to your news group to look around and what did I
find? I bunch of people in need of my cookbook "Eva's Hungarian
Kitchen". I was not going to promote it to any news groups, but
your conversations prompted me to tell you about it.It was written in
1984, in English (not a translation) for the second+ generations of
Hungarians in the western world. It contains all the traditional home
recipes that mothers and grandmothers cooked for their families and are
fondly and nostalgically remembered adapted to the modern kitchen. It
also contains a little history, reminiscences, notes on culture and
tradition, anecdotes...... It is 144 pages, coil bound, has a color
cover and 8 "mouth watering" color pages.Copies of the last printing
are still available. From outside Canada send  US$12.95+3.00 for
shipping. Canadians send CA$12.95+3.00 to cover GST and shipping. All
copies will be signed and dedicated if you wish.
Try Kay Enterprises, P.O. Box 1402, Canmore, Alta.,T0L 0M0, Canada

Now about the Somloi Galuska. It is Gundel's creation from the recent
past. I have the recipe and will E-mail it on request, but I warn you
it is long, nearly 3 pages and arduous. 

E.Balogh wrote:

>the Hungarians qualify. However, what I found interesting was that this man
>is highly educated, and has a rather distinguished demeanor. He could utter
>the most horrendous things in the calmest manner. His tone was measured. And
>he looked like a retired university professor. Isn't he one, by the way? I
>found not just him frightening but that a man of his background and general
>countenance could possibly utter those words.

I have never understood why peoples think that somebody should be a paranoic,
uneducated 'elmebeteg' if (s)he is nazi or racist,etc. I think the real evil
things can be done by clever or/and educated people and the ideas are not
necesserily correlated with mental capabilities.

J.Zsargo

At 08:34 PM 5/28/96 -0700, you wrote:
>Could anyone identify the towns of Degul-Silvaniei (spelling uncertain),
>probably near Temesva1r?

Probably it is Cehul Silvaniei, Szilagysomlyo.

 Does the Hungarian family name Bontya or Bontye, or
>a Romanian name Bontea or Baute sound like a reasonably common name in one
>language or the other?

Bontea is possible in Romanian,  with or without a , under the t (pronounced
as c in Hungarian)

>What Hungarian name would be Romanized as Vasile?

Laszlo

Gabor D. Farkas

At 11:02 PM 5/28/96 -0400, Alexander Berendi, wrote:

>Bohoc.  Te tapasztalatlan, szentimentalis bohoc.  Get a life.  This woman is
>just trying to stop this newsgroup dumming down to the level of ever
>permissive fools like you who think that there is no greater virtue than
>tolerance for the intellectually challenged.  SO

Te nagyobb bohoc vagy mint e'n.  But you're right about one thing.  I do
tolerate those who are different.  Too bad you see that as some sort of
intellectual crime.  Too bad we all can't be as bright, direct, and clever
as you seem to be.  Maybe you can sponsor an internet/newsgroup AVO who
would be responsible for getting rid of all the clowns and riff raff who are
lowering your reading standards.  Yes, that's what we need - concrete
solutions for concrete situations.

Tell me one thing.  Have you always had trouble with freedom of speech or do
you just not understand the concept?  Or are you still *thinking* like a
Stalinist?

Joe Szalai

At 03:35 AM 5/29/96 -0400, Janos Zsargo, wrote:

>I have never understood why peoples think that somebody should be a paranoic,
>uneducated 'elmebeteg' if (s)he is nazi or racist,etc. I think the real evil
>things can be done by clever or/and educated people and the ideas are not
>necesserily correlated with mental capabilities.

Well what do you know.  I agree with you.  There are many well educated
people who have seemingly strange, dangerous, etc., views.  I think it's a
question of 'consciousness'.  Also, to label racists and nazi's as sick or
demented dosen't solve anything.  Saying that Hitler was sick will not help
us stop the next 'sick' person from doing the same things.

Joe Szalai

Andras Kornai > on 21 May 1996 at 13:17:59, RE:
szabadsagharc ['56] wrote:

<"...revolution..wasn't anti-communist"

        Au contraire, on 30 October 1956, the party presidium
        dissolved the MDP (Hungarian Workers' Party, the Stalinist
        state party founded in 1948). Simultaneously, Imre Nagy
        announced the end of the single party system. A multi-party
        parliamentary democracy was established. The revolution swept
        away the power-monopoly of the ancien regime which retreated
        head over heels. Imre Nagy chose a path away from communism.

        The support received by the reform politicians was not for the
        communist system, but for its replacement.

Kornai goes on:

<"... token resistance offered by Hungary..">
<"... few actually fought..">

        The Russians did not think so. In fact, to reimpose their
        colonial rule in Hungary, they threw in more than 16 army
        and 2 air force divisions. In the fighting they suffered
        close to 700 dead, 1500 wounded and scores missing. On the
        side of the freedom fighters (szabadsagharcos), at least 2700
        were killed and an estimated 30,000 wounded. When resistance
        was no longer feasible in light of the superiority of Russian
        arms, according to the UN High Commissioner for Refugees
        an estimated 200,000 left the country because of the fear of
        retribution.

Kornai goes on to say:

<"...Csaba Zoltani's version...is preposterous nonsense promoted
<by the vast majority of '56 emigres who were brave enough to emigrate
<but not brave enough to stand up and fight..."

<"...these people are collectively awarding themselves combat stripes they
<don't deserve..."

<"It's time Csaba Zoltani and other promoters of the "szabadsagharc"
<myth fess up."

<"I don't expect them to restore their honor by committing suicide,
<but I expect them to cut the crap."

<"...how dare these other mythmakers continue with their apalling
<nonsense."

        The above illustrates the old adage that the middle and older
        generation of East and Central Europeans, even if exposed to the
        civilizing discourse of the Anglo-Saxon world, can't hide their
        cultural backgrounds when debating. The culture of tolerance and
        the consideration of the possibility that the other person may have
        a point of view as valid as one's own is totally lacking.
        When they run out of ideas, their emotions take over. They
        unburden themselves with a torrent of arguments ad hominem.

        In their extremism, there is much that make Pellionisz and
        Kornai kindred spirits.


CSABA K ZOLTANI

Friends:

The Daily News in Halifax has been carrying a story for the last two days.
This morning's paper showed a full page photo of a man, with his head bowed
in distraught.  The photo was taken shortly after he learned the following.
(there are about 8 full pages of coverage ... thus the highlights):

He is the only surviving member of four stoweaways on the
Taiwanese-registered ship Maersk Dubai.  Four Filipino crew members from the
Maersk Dubai have come forth to Canadian authorities and confirmed that the
captain of the ship ordered the stowaways to be thrown overboard in order to
escape a $7000.00 fine if caught.

Three of the four Romanians are missing; and the crew confirms having seen
them being 'forced' overboard  The report gets quite specific and very
emotional, as the crew members relay their accounts of the events.  When the
fourth stoweaway was discovered by members of the crew, a decision was made
to hide him, rather than carrying out the Captain's order.  The "Bird"
(code-name given by crew to refugee) is now safe in Canada awaiting refugee
status.  The stoweaways ranged from 20-30 insinuated to have all been males
- no specific confirmations of sex in report.

They fled Romania, where unemployment is extremely high, wages are extremely
low and the cost of living is unbeareably high.  Freedom to practice their
religion was an factor also - all quotes by "Bird" who is Mr. Nicolae Pasca.
The crew members are begging to have their identities kept secret, since
they fear retaliation on their families.  The captain of the boat claims
that "crew members have vivid imaginations".  The ship has been detained by
Canadian Officials.  News in Taiwan was the extent of a simple statement
"Three Romanian Stoweaways thrown overboard".  The Canadians are raged, and
Immigration Officials are questioning the rationale of fines for stoweaways.

Thought this might be of interest to some of you.
Regards,
Aniko Dunford

I wonder why the refugees claimed a lack of freedom of religion in
Romania. Interesting claim, unless they ahd been stowaways since before
1989. Sad thing of it is, in non-Transylvanian areas, the problems are
that bad. My last trip to Bucharest exemplified this to me as I stood
outside Gara de Nord (North Train Station for those who haven't seen
Bucharest).

Darren Purcell
Department of Geography
Florida State University

Thansk to those who provided the explanation. I did not mean to imply
that Hungarian were naturally disposed to this sort of thing (someone in
personal email wondered what I was getting at).

Szervusztok es Koszonom

Darren

Dear Andras;

At 08:34 PM 5/28/96 -0700, you wrote:
>Could anyone identify the towns of Degul-Silvaniei (spelling uncertain),
>probably near Temesva1r? Does the Hungarian family name Bontya or Bontye, or
>a Romanian name Bontea or Baute sound like a reasonably common name in one
>language or the other? What Hungarian name would be Romanized as Vasile?
>
>Any help appreciated, thanks,
>
>Andra1s Kornai
>
>First, I found a small town in Somogy county with the name "Bonnya."  There
are instances of family names coming from towns and vice-versa.  Second,
when going through the parish and historical records of Somogy county
recently in Salt Lake City, I learned that most of Somogy county was not
re-settled until after about 1700 CE.   Moreover the families families who
suddenly appeared after 1700 CE seemed to have mostly come from two areas:
Transylvania, and northern Hungary around Gyor.

Regarding Degul-Silvaniei, the closest approximations of those names are all
seemingly in a small area between Cluj and Satu Mare in northwest Romania.
The names I found were the town of Dej, northeast of Cluj; Cehu Silvaniei
and Simlaul Silvaniei about 70 miles apart and midway between Cluj and Satu
Mare; Supuru deJos just north of Cehu Silvaniei; and Firiza deJos, just
southeast of Satu Mare.  The only use of "silvaniei" in Romania seemed to be
in the described area, not in the south.

I hope this is of some help.

Sincerely,

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose,CA

N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Dear Joe;

At 11:32 AM 5/27/96 -0400, you wrote:

>As far as I'm concerned you can post non-political stuff to this newsgroup,
>Cecilia.  Although I'm very interested in political issues, I'm also an
>avid gardener and a trained chef.  Just because I post to political ideas or
>issues does not mean that I'm one dimentional.  Don't allow Martha Bihari
>to set the agenda for this group.  By the way, I'm not going to allow you
>to set the agenda either.  But, by all means, keep on posting.  Sometimes
>I don't read everything you write and most often I disagree with you.
>But then I wouldn't be interseted in reading only those posts that I
>agree with.  I don't mind getting pissed off at writers once in a while.
>It keeps the blood flowing and the brain active.
>
>Joe Szalai
>
Thank you very much, Joe.  I really appreciate this response from you, and I
mean it.

Also, then if anyone has any ideas--better yet based on some experience, not
necessarily his or her own--on how to restore heavy magnesium-calcium
dominant clay that has been first depleted of organic materials by removing
trees and bushes, followed by one-crop farming, and vineyards in which the
residue was not returned to the soil, then compacted by years of dense
cattle herds, I would like to see some postings.

So far, everything I've tried has had only minimal impact, and I've broken
two shovels, one pick, and the tip of a rock hammer, dulled another rock
hammer, and the blade of a breaker bar trying to break this stuff up every
year.  Some things I've learned about this soil (?).  Sand mixed with it
literally causes that area to become concrete--and almost right away.  Wood
ashes and chip compost seem to create one very large brick.  They don't
break down easily or blend easily.  I've never seen anything like it,
before.  Redwood and other composts keep rising to the surface and floating
away.  Gypsum does a little better but behaves similarly to the redwood
compost.  Peat moss is similar to wood and other chip compost.  Just lays
there in between clumps of clay, at best.

I understand people in some areas of Utah are having the same problem as
gardeners in my area, so this is not completely unique.

Most of the small gardeners here don't deal with the soil at all.  They
simply haul in enough new soil to create any entire new bed atop the clay.
Their plants seldom penetrate below the artificial top layer.

The reason I'm trying to do something different is because the entire range
of eastern hillsides in this area, as well as adjacent alluvial plains have
all been similarly damaged by preceding farming and ranching practices and
we now have a tremendous ongoing erosion, dust production, etc. problem.  If
I can make something work small scale, there might be hope for some larger
scale environmental restoration.

Thanks for reading.

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA

N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Dear Darren;

At 10:13 AM 5/27/96 -0400, you wrote:

>My question,
>How can he not see the contradiction? I didn't think Hungarians were
>considered Aryan. Can someone enlighten me on the ethno-classification
>bit here? I know the "origins" of the Hungarians and how they arrived, so
>what I am looking for is the present day classification.
>
>PS. The author has a chapter titled "The Day of the Rope" when all those
>whites who have betrayed their race will be hung as well. Nice and cheery
>for those of us who might be a little more open-minded about things.
>

Oh brother! We just had a discussion demonstrating continued disagreement
about the language and otherwiset went nowhere fast. Ditto a similar
discussion on current genetics. Are you sure you really want to start up any
of this again???

Near as I can figure we popped out from under cabbage leaves--stuffed
cabbage, probably--and emerged fully formed--a little like Athena from the
head of Zeus long about 800 CE. Scientific evidence which is still not fully
extended by objective academics of any particular ethnicity who have
attained world-wide credibility for so being to much of Hungary's history,
language, etc., etc. is probably (although this is just my opinion) yet
insufficient to state anything definite about Hungarians before the
Europeans noted us and began writing opinions. ;-)

Good luck with your attempt at reincarnating any of these discussions.  I
hope you're wearing flame/heat protection. As for me, by this weekend I'm
headed to Florida for about 10 days where I figure with my luck my plane
will arrive at exactly the same time as the start of this year's hurricane
season.  I figure it will probably be much safer there than here. ;-)

Sincerely,


Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA








N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Dear Gabor;

At 06:36 PM 5/28/96 -0700, you wrote:
>I spent Memorial Day with friends in the Washington DC area. On Sunday we
>visited the Vietnam War Memorial and the Korean War Memorial. Regardless of
>one's feelings about those or any other wars, it is heartbreaking to see the
>thousands of names of young people who died for their country. You can see a
>few Hungarian names on the wall.
>
>On the other hand it was strange to see the thousands of motorcyclists. Some
>of them looked like real war veterans but many of them looked like Hell's
>Angels.
>
>Gabor D. Farkas
>
They are--both bikers and veterans, although most are probably not wearing
the jackets or vests indicating they are really "Hell's Angels."  I'm saving
this posting for one of my best friends, however, who was a Green Beret in
'Nam, and also has been a biker--and member of motorcyle groups, since he
was 16.    Most of the bikers hold real jobs, at decent salaries, though,
they're not "outlaws."  A lot of the ones whose looks probably surprised you
the most probably come from places like Idaho, Montana, northern
California--areas of the west and other mountain/wildnerness areas where
looks and individualism are not a major concern.  Thanks for the posting.

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA




N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Dear Darren;

At 12:24 PM 5/27/96 -0400, you wrote:
>HMJMM, technolgy gurantees freedom, or does it serve only the group that
>posseses it? I didn';t know Tokes got a million to enlighten to
>facilitate only the Magyar minority in romania.
>
>Perhaps I am falling into the pro-romania portion of my life, but were
>these pieces of technology to be shared or only used to combat the idiots
>in Cluj and Bucharest? Looking forward to the responses from those in the
>know.
>
The organization that the Bishop runs is a coalition, that is has members
from multiple ethnic communities.  He told me he was proud of the fact that
in terms of ethnic Romanians and Hungarians it seemed to be developing as an
organization of about equal numbers of both.  He wasn't interested in just
serving a minority, but rather in helping both groups get along with one
another.  He was also interested in the general elevation of education and
technology in Transylvania, as he believed many areas of that part of
Romania  didn't get to obtain quite the level of resources the Ceaucescu and
other governments had previously allocated.

Technology generally seems to serve whomever possesses it, I'd guess.
Whether it is used for good or ill, rather depends upon the character of the
person using it--and how well they consider all the possible consequences of
the best of intentions.

People who don't like and want to exclude other people seem to have
computers, as well as people who would like to bring people together in
mutual respect.  Sometimes one side will prevail, and sometimes others.
Human history seems to be made up of both in nearly equal numbers. Pinochet,
the Argentinian generals, Hitler and Stalin are gone one way or another, but
it seems likely to me that someone else in a few years or generations will
emulate them, in  if not their countries, some other nearby.  Ditto, the
Roosevelts, Churchills, Matyas Corvinus', Claudius's, etc..

Sincerely,

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA




N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Dear Eva;

At 08:38 AM 5/28/96 -0700, you wrote:

>At 08:00 AM 5/27/96 -0600, Cecilia wrote:
>
>>It seems to an insignificant non-cultural item, relegated only to as Count
>>Michael Karolyi put it in his first autobiography (before he ended up in
>>exile), "those stupid southwestern Hungarians who don't see how important
>>his mother's soirees to discuss the political milieu really are, and prefer
>>to spend as much time getting mud on their boots among the peasants, or
>>more,   than attending his mother's or the imperial court."
>
>        Which autobiography are you referring to? To my knowledge Karolyi
>hadn't written an autobiography before he left for exile in 1919. Moreover,
>the quotation is not very clear to me.
>
Many years ago, I found two volumes of Karyoli's memoirs/autobiographies in
a public library.  The first was written, but publication date uncertain,
before his political efforts failed.  The second was written and published
after his visit to Vienna when he was trying to resurrect his political efforts
.

>
>>Is there perhaps another forum around that covers the other endeavors that
>>some Hungarians might practice as avocations or hobbies, and might consider
>>worth sharing?  Perhaps a Hungarian "rennaissance persons" forum where
>>people who grew up more like Thomas Jefferson and George Washington, rather
>>than like Karl Marx, Lenin, or Goebbels, learning to appreciate and explore
>>all kinds of things in life, might be congregating?
>
>        I am afraid Cecilia is becoming more and more insulting. If I
>understand the above paragraph correctly, she is comparing us to Marx,
>Lenin, and Goebbels, as opposed to true democrats like Jefferson and
>Washington. I find all these name-callings unacceptable.
>
I wasn't directly calling any one names.  If you wish to believe you're
background was included in an unfavorable comparative sense and take
offense, that's entirely up to you.  After all I don't know how you,
personally were raised, and never claimed otherwise.  And after all, some
people think in these more complex times, it is better to live a more
narrowly focused life.

I'm simply looking for a group that might share my own background better to
discuss items in which this group may not be interested.

By the way, if people want to tell me about their gardens, studies, etc., in
their postings, perhaps it seems weird, but to me it's fascinating.  Gives
me a much better idea of what the whole person is like, and where I might
find some common ground (pun intended).  Sorry if that idea is just so much
manure to others... ;-)

(P.S. to Aniko--how am I doing with this post?--Hope to be better yet, after
the vacation...)

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA


N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Hi Cecilia:

At 02:18 PM 5/29/96 -0600, you wrote:
>
>(P.S. to Aniko--how am I doing with this post?--Hope to be better yet, after
>the vacation...)
No Comment....  I am *not* "talking" to you, until I see that retraction...
so there!>
Aniko

>Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
>San Jose, CA
>
>
>N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA
>
>

First and update, for those who might be interested.

Out of the blue (and quite suprising also) the Canadian Officials have
managed to actually get on board the Maerst and have now "arrested/charged -
loose terms" seven members of the crew with murder.  One being the captain
and six others. The Taiwaneese Government is not co-operating, the Romanian
Embassy is wishy washy, ...

At 01:00 PM 5/29/96 -0400, you wrote:
>I wonder why the refugees claimed a lack of freedom of religion in
>Romania. Interesting claim, unless they ahd been stowaways since before
>1989.

I doubt it Darren.  It only takes the max of 14 days to cross the Atlantic.
Secondly, does it really matter why they fled Romania at this point in time?
Fact remains, three humans have been thrown into the mid-Atlantic to meet
their maker, for the sake of saving $7,000.00 - regardless of their
nationality, preference of religion etc....

Sad thing of it is, in non-Transylvanian areas, the problems are
>that bad. My last trip to Bucharest exemplified this to me as I stood
>outside Gara de Nord (North Train Station for those who haven't seen
>Bucharest).

Sad it is!  All the way around... very well put.
Aniko Dunford
>
>Darren Purcell
>Department of Geography
>Florida State University
>
>

At 02:30 PM 5/27/96 +1000, George Antony wrote:

>Aniko's lines probably reflect the sentiments of many other
>readers.  I have a suspicion that all this temperamental Magyar
>argumentation about an issue as small as how to call the events of
>1956 is immensely puzzling for most readers, including Hungarians
>living in the West, who are not familiar with the current Hungarian
>politics.

        Every time I think that by now I am thoroughly familiar with the
Hungarian political scene I am faced with some new facts, which make me
realize that "jo pap holtig tanul." I must admit that I was also puzzled
about this hairsplitting between revolution and war of independence.  For
the life of me I couldn't figure out what difference it makes. Moreover, as
I mentioned in an earlier posting, the whole question seemed artificial to me.


>The leftist Communists were the main
>enemy, hence everybody on the left was an enemy.  In contrast, the centre
>right perceived the extreme right as politically preferable to anybody on
>the left, on the basis of 'my enemy's enemy is my friend'.

        This is very true. One can even see it in a microcosmos--Forum, for
example--where the moderate right refuses to disassociate itself from the
extreme right. The best they can muster is silence.


>The problem is that during the few days of the 1956 events the people who
>reached prominence mostly cannot be claimed by the right.  Most riling for
>the right is that the best-known leaders and martyrs of 1956 (e.g., Nagy,
>Maleter) were from the Communist establishment.  For sure, many leaders of
>the right (Antall, Csurka, Torgyan) played a role in 1956 and suffered in
>the revenge.  Their role was minor, however, and they were not martyred.
>Eventually, they made their private peace with Kadar - as have most
>Hungarians.

        Of course, by now I realize that in my naivete' I stepped on every
right-wing toe on the Internet. I quoted GMT's beautiful piece, "Farewell to
the Left," in which he has a longish passage on the Hungarian intellectual
drift of things ever since the turn of the century--all coming from the left
and culminating in 1956 which he called a socialist revolution. At this
point all hell broke loose. Even the more moderate right vehementely
protested. Then, if that wasn't enough, I mentioned the fact that today's
right was not at all active in the dissident movement. And finally, I became
rather indignant that the right is trying to expropriate the revolution when
it was the work of every shade of political opinion that could possibly
exist. Now I understand why they hated me so.

>The irony is that if
>we were to call 1956 a freedom fight on grounds of fight against foreign
>domination, we would sooner have to apply the term to the war fought by the
>(Communist) Hungarian Council Republic in 1919.

        Quite! Why do you think Bela Kun's regime was actually quite popular
at the beginning? Because he fought the Czechs and reconquered most of Upper
Hungary (Slovakia) in about two weeks. Everybody loved the Hungarian Red
Army then.

        Finally, what today's political pundits don't seem to understand
that my stand is not a political one. It is rather the habit of someone who
was trained as a historian: To find out the truth. To be detached and to be
able to look upon historical events as well as current ones critically. And
in my mind there is no question that there was a very strong socialist
component of 1956. Especially the younger people were thinking in terms of
socialism. Capitalism was a dirty word for us and we still believed that a
reformed socialist system was viable. Of course, it didn't take me a very
long time to realize that in fact we were naive and our ideas were
unrealistic. But I will not deny either my own ideas or the ideas of all
those thousands of students who took part in the revolutionary events one
way or the other. (If you read Bela Liptak's piece on his activities during
1956, he says the same thing about our aims.) To hear today from people who
haven't been alive at the time that we--all those thousands--were nothing
but communist underlings is very, very sad. And, of course, totally untrue.
The country in October-November-December 1956 displayed extraordinary unity
and the main thrust was socialism and democracy. But today the right tries
to change the flavor of that revolution, try to expropriate it, and try to
make people believe that it was some far-right, antidemocratic movement.

        Eva Balogh

At 09:02 AM 5/29/96 EDT, Csaba Zoltani wrote a rather longish critique of
Andras Kornai's posting on 1956. I am wondering whether he would be willing
to answer my objections to calling 1956 "szabadsagharc." I think there is a
possibility for rational discussion there.

        Eva Balogh

At 07:33 PM 5/28/96 -0700, Louis Elteto wrote, quoting me:

>>         As far as I know the Aryans were people who spoke an Indo-European
>> language and migrated into northern India and therefore, I don't think that
>> the Hungarians qualify. However, what I found interesting was that this man
>> is highly educated, and has a rather distinguished demeanor. He could utter
>> the most horrendous things in the calmest manner. His tone was measured. And
>> he looked like a retired university professor. Isn't he one, by the way? I
>> found not just him frightening but that a man of his background and general
>> countenance could possibly utter those words.

>By your criteria, American blacks, because they speak English, are white
>Aryans. - The genetic history of a people and the history of the language
>they speak are two separate things. I'm afraid - under the circumstances
>it must be put this way - Hungarians are ethnically not very different
>from their neighbors, who are, for all the wrong - linguistic - reasons,
>thought of as Aryans.

        I wasn't speaking of today's Hungarians. Moreover, I was speaking
the original, genuine Aryans. And somehow I doubt that the original Aryans,
speaking an Indo-European language, somewhere near India and the Hungarians,
speaking a Finno-Ugric language were related in those days.

        Eva Balogh

At 02:18 PM 5/29/96 -0600, Cecilia wrote:
>Dear Eva;

>Many years ago, I found two volumes of Karyoli's memoirs/autobiographies in
>a public library.  The first was written, but publication date uncertain,
>before his political efforts failed.  The second was written and published
>after his visit to Vienna when he was trying to resurrect his political
efforts.

        I'm afraid this whole thing is jibberish. What "visit to Vienna,"
and what does it mean that "he was trying to resurrect his political
efforts." He didn't visit Vienna and he didn't really try to resurrect his
political career. He left Hungary in 1919 and moved to Prague and from
Prague to France. After 1945 he returned to Hungary and became ambassador to
France. He resigned after the communists got into power. He wrote two
autobiographies. The first, the more important one, was published in 1922 in
Hungarian, English, and German, and another one in the early 1950s.

>After all I don't know how you,
>personally were raised, and never claimed otherwise.  And after all, some
>people think in these more complex times, it is better to live a more
>narrowly focused life.

        Your insults are undescribable! Yes, you don't know how I was raised
and your suggestion for a more narrowly focused life is beyond description.

>I'm simply looking for a group that might share my own background better to
>discuss items in which this group may not be interested.

        Please, hurry up and find a more congenial group which would be more
interested in your ideas on manure and related subjects.

        Eva Balogh

On Wed, 29 May 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:

>
>         I wasn't speaking of today's Hungarians. Moreover, I was speaking
> the original, genuine Aryans. And somehow I doubt that the original Aryans,
> speaking an Indo-European language, somewhere near India and the Hungarians,
> speaking a Finno-Ugric language were related in those days.
>
>         Eva Balogh
>
The question was: _are_ Hungarians Aryans. Not whether they were in some
mythical age. So we are speaking of today's Hungarians. My point is:
language has a separate history from race.

Lou Elteto

Eva Balogh wrote, addressed to Cecilia Fabos_Becker:

>         Please, hurry up and find a more congenial group which would be more
> interested in your ideas on manure and related subjects.

I do not think that this is necessary.  While I find many of Ms Fabos-Becker's
topics just as relevant to HUNGARY as the recurring debates in this group on
aspects of US politics/society etc. without any Hungarian reference, I do not
think forcing her out is called for.

Besides, manure and related subjects may well be of more interest, and
certainly well within the charter of this discussion group, if it were
HUNGARIAN manure.

As for avoiding debates of a personal nature, one way is not to pick up the
gauntlet.

George Antony

At 04:00 PM 5/29/96 -0700, you wrote:
>
>        Every time I think that by now I am thoroughly familiar with the
>Hungarian political scene I am faced with some new facts, which make me
>realize that "jo pap holtig tanul." I must admit that I was also puzzled
>about this hairsplitting between revolution and war of independence.  For
>the life of me I couldn't figure out what difference it makes. Moreover, as
>I mentioned in an earlier posting, the whole question seemed artificial to me
<snip>
Boy, am I glad to read this... as well as the rest!
As for the rest of your post Eva, very very interesting and appreciated,
thank you.  I am slowly putting the pieces of the puzzle together... all
information helps!

Thanks again,
Aniko

In article >, "S. Bihari"
> writes:

>
>You asked me a legitimate question.  Here I am to explain the
>reason for my actions.
>
>As you should well know, I never "flame."  This was not the first
>time that I attempted to request that she moderate her posts.
>I did it all in private.  There was never a reply, a reasoning.
>
>This time it was the proverbial "straw that broke the camel's
>back."  My cup runneth over.  Here was a letter with all sorts of
>information that belonged in a personal correspondence.  Were I
>to query Cecilia directly, I would have had dead silence as a
>reply.  BTW, I sent it to her, as well as to the list.  I also
>wanted you all to be able to see the justification for my reaction.
>
>Please tell me if this post was RELEVANT to many things that were
>discussed up to that time.  It was full of me, Me, ME...  For
>some time now it's been a continuous list of: MY studies, MY
>health problems, MY computer, MY friends, MY garden, MY
>bookshelves, MY family - ad nauseam.  To a single person, to a
>group of close friends, these are every day topics.  But to a
>list of hundreds - hardly!  They couldn't be more tedious, and -
>let's be honest ! - utterly boring!
>
>I would never intend to "entertain" any of you of the account of
>MY accident; (just four weeks ago) MY family, (I, too, have one,
>you know?) MY education, (I possess that, too!) MY friends (I have
>them also) MY books, MY garden, etc., etc.  If I do say anything
>about them, they stay out of the *public* discussions, as they
>should.
>
>I was fully aware of the contents of my post.  Yes, it included
>the FULL letter that was posted to the list by Cecilia.  Small
>wonder that it was wordy!  By now, you all should have noticed
>that I regularly eliminate all the unnecessary quotes from my
>posts and that I am not in the habit of writing ream after ream.
>I don't have the time to READ them, let alone write that much.
>
>So, I snapped.  I am happy I did!  It is finally out in the open;
>it will not give me indigestion in the future.  I will not repeat
>it; I will not belabor it.  Now I relax and can go on with my
>life.
>
>If you and most others on the list prefer to have that kind of
>exchange instead of some substance, be it!  It will not bother
>me, if that is the *concensus.*  As long as there is an under-
>standing to that effect.  I don't expect to set up rules, as I am
>only one little cog in a big machine.  I will abide by the wishes
>of the majority.
>
>While I have your attention, Joe, your versatility never ceases
>to amaze me.  You are a librarian, if I remember right.  Now it
>turns out that you are a trained chef and a great gardener.  A
>Jack of all trades!  It must be nice!  Tell me please: in which
>one of these are you a master?

Oh, my God! Now Martha is starting to file posts of Fabos-Beckerian
lengths! Quick -- someone throw a pan of ice water on her before she
starts to trance-channel a bunch of idiotic crap about how Sumerian and
Hungarian are related.
Sam Stowe

P.S. -- Martha, could you, like, post a copy of the guidelines of what
we're supposed to discuss on here and how we're supposed to discuss it so
we won't have to endure any more tantrums of this nature? You seemed to be
obsessed a few weeks back with making sure everyone was nice and pleasant
in their posts. Now you raise objections to content. We want to make sure
we discuss what YOU want to discuss, the way YOU want to discuss it and
not cross the boundaries that send YOU into an electronic rage. YOU, after
all, have a mandate to raise hell with the rest of us to get what YOU
want.

P.S.S. -- Okay, so gardening, recipes and any nutty
sociolinguistic/historical theories proposed by Cecelia Fabos-Becker are
out of bounds. What else?

Hi y'all,

Count Agoston Haraszthy, from the southern Balaton area, was, apparently,
one of the founders of the modern Californian wine industry. In 1856 he
founded the Buena Vista Winery in Sonoma Valley, California. I visited
the place last February, but does anyone know anything about this
interesting chap? BTW did Haraszthy (or anyone else) try to keep any of
the Hungarian wine making traditions alive when he migrated to the USA
(I mean: is there something like an *American Tokaji*, or similar, these
days)?

Regards,

George

Here's my two forints worth on this topic.

Everything in life is Hungarian!  Aren't we human?  Don't we have the same
interests as everyone else?  And don't we pursue those interests in our
special Hungarian way?

To me that's what makes this a Hungarian forum: how we live our everyday
lives as Hungarians.  Let's allow people to talk about their experiences
as they wish.  As Ann Landers said about TV, you can always turn it off.

Now I'll mention an experience I had in this group which may (or may not)
be "typically Hungarian."  And keep in mind, I'm not at all bothered, just
very amused.  I put out a notice recently that I was writing a book based
in Hungary, and I needed info on all sorts of important things: life in
the 30s-40s in BP, in 1944, the years before comm. in 45'48, the Rakosi
years, the Nagy years, etc.  And then, just as an example of some of the
little details of life, I asked what one would order at Gerbeaud's.

Well, no response to the important questions--but a pile of responses
regarding Somlo'i galuska (it's still continuing).  I'm not angry and not
saying "this shouldn't be in this group, it's a private matter--dessert!"
No, to me, it's all very funny, and very very Hungarian.

So everyone--enjoy!

Dear Aniko;

At 06:51 PM 5/29/96 -0300, you wrote:
>Hi Cecilia:
>
>At 02:18 PM 5/29/96 -0600, you wrote:
>>
>>(P.S. to Aniko--how am I doing with this post?--Hope to be better yet, after
>>the vacation...)
>No Comment....  I am *not* "talking" to you, until I see that retraction...
>so there!>

Which/what retraction?  There was something uniquely offensive to all?  I
thought everything I've ever posted had someone or other wishing I'd make
_a_ retraction.  Did I miss something in particular?

I caught the expression that you felt I contradicted myself and that one
statement itself was the retraction for another.  However, I think we are
probably interpreting the expression in different ways and where I didn't
think I contradicted myself, you thought I did.  Legitimate views, both.
Remember too, I live as a constantly split personality:balancing (actually
trying to and often landing without a net) between cautious optimism and
hope and pessimistic cynicism and a "what the hell, a few million years from
now we'll all be just part of the metamorphic rock in some future world"
feeling."   How can such a split personality contradict oneself when one
_is_ a living contradiction?...What sometimes makes sense to me because I'm
seeing different situations from different parts of the balance is not going
to be exactly the same view for every situation.

However, I think I'd better give up trying to explain this, it's probably
only going to increase, not diminish, the confusion.  My apologies, period.
Take them however you wish.

Just a general question--note question--not opinion.  Does retracting
anything or clarifying anything among this group only provoke yet another
debate as to whether it should be done, how, what terms etc.?  Subheading to
question:if someone ameliorates, retracts, or whatever, even a part of
anything will it cause some people to assume the person doing so is
admitting gross failure at being a human being in _everything_  ever posted,
and will this cause further deprecatory "discussions" to review and shred
further everything else said engendering yet more and more acrimonious
debate until World War III finally ends it all.  (I figure with all the heat
we're generating something has got to start a chain reaction somewhere in
the electrical systems or ether that bounces around somewhere else and...)

How about if I just suggest to each individual who wishes to take offense at
something, or take something personal that I've posted to make up his or her
own retraction to himself, privately of course, to limit further debate, and
sign my name to it?  Either that, or take every term and word I've written,
use a good thesaurus and select all the connotations you would prefer to
find the more agreeable expression to one's own perception.  I think at this
point, anything I write is inevitably, undoubtedly going to offend
someone.--probably this already has--wouldn't you think so, too? :-)

Good Lord, then I'd better stop adding to this posting or the further
dissections will tie up this group until the 22nd century!  Ouch!

Cecilia

(er, I'm not in further trouble if I assume everyone knows who this is by
just the first name?)






N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Hi. My name is Luis Paredes. If you read this message, and if you live in
Budapest, please send in behave of me a Birthday greeting to Zamora
Szilvia. Her Birthday was on may, 28th and her phone number is 186-0688 in
Budapest.

Thank you in advance.

If you send her my message, please notify me at   


Thank you again

Luis Paredes

Csaba Zoltani (ASHPC/CTD) >, responding to Andras Kornai's
statement that 1956 was a >"...revolution..wasn't anti-communist", wrote:

>Au contraire, on 30 October 1956, the party presidium dissolved the MDP
>(Hungarian Workers' Party, the Stalinist state party founded in 1948).

How is that action 'anti-communist'?  To me it seems to be no more than a
political maneuver, and the last time I checked there were no political
parties whose ideology was 'political maneuver'.

>Simultaneously, Imre Nagy announced the end of the single party system. A
>multi-party parliamentary democracy was established.

A multi-pary parliamentary democray would be anti-Leninist, for sure.  But
Leninism, as I understand it, was a method, or a way, to establish
communism.  There's not much to be gained by confusing 'method of achieving'
with 'theory'.  Doing away with Leninism is not anti-communist.  Quite the
contrary, actually.

>The revolution swept away the power-monopoly of the ancien regime which
>retreated head over heels. Imre Nagy chose a path away from communism.

Nice slip there, Csaba.  Don't you mean the 'freedom fighters' swept
away...?  And how did Imre Nagy chose a path away from communism?

>The support received by the reform politicians was not for the communist
>system, but for its replacement.

Who were the reform politicians?  How did they receive support?  How could
that support be measured?  Who or what organization measured it?   Where is
the documentation to show the kind of support you're talking about?

>In their extremism, there is much that make Pellionisz and Kornai kindred
>spirits.

Really?  I don't see it.

I find this whole debate over what to call 1956 rather odd.  I grew up in
the large, Hungarian emigre community in the Hamilton/Toronto area of
Southern Ontario.  My father, because of his occupation, knew and talked to
many members of that community about 1956.  Not once did I hear anyone call
the events of 1956 a 'szabadsagharc'.  The first time I heard it was right
here, on this newsgroup.  We always called '56 a revolution.  That's a
misnomer for sure, but that's what we called it.  And we will continue to
call it that.  It's not as romantic as 'freedom fighter' or 'szabadsagharc'
but I thought we left rewriting history behind us.

Joe Szalai

>Could anyone identify the towns of Degul-Silvaniei (spelling uncertain),
>probably near Temesva1r? Does the Hungarian family name Bontya or Bontye, or
>a Romanian name Bontea or Baute sound like a reasonably common name in one
>language or the other? What Hungarian name would be Romanized as Vasile?

>Any help appreciated, thanks,

>Andra1s Kornai

Andra's,
there is a town in Szilagy-county called Cehul Silvaniei (Szilagycseh), in the
Zilah, Szatmar, Nagybanya triangle. I graduated from the Temesvar
 Politechnical Institute, lived there for 5 years, but never heard of
Degul-Silvaniei.
Bontya exists as Hungarian family name as well as Bontea - Romanian
family name, Baute does not ring any bell with me.
Finally,  Vasile stands for Laszlo in Romanian.
Good luck with your search !
              Biro Jeno".