In article >,
Laszlo Balogh > wrote:
| bit.listserv.hungary
| [2] AUTO Justice in Hungary
| 
| 
| 
| "Peter A. Soltesz" > wrote:
| >
| >Here is one other thing that HU needs to eliminate!
| >
| >Getting tickets and PAYING the fines ON-THE-SPOT!
| >
| >I wonder how many millions of HUF wind up in the policemen's pockets?
| >Are the fines larger the "better" car you have -- you betcha!
| >
| >Let's start fixing things in HU one thing at a time. This might give 
| the
| >residents a slight improvement on their perspective of life.
| >
| >Peter Soltesz
| 
| XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
| 
| I agree with the above and the same idea came to my mind, that On The 
| Spot Fines are absolutely uncalled for and a corruptive.
| 
| This year I went to Hungary twice. First in May than this month.
| 
| Since I had to go Oroshaza both occasions I was stopped by the police on 
| 
| the E5 to Szeged. The first trip 3 times, twice going and once coming.
| Remember it's a relatively short trip!!
| 
|  While the last time I was stopped twice the same way and finally, once 
| on the Budaorsi ut, the night before I left the country.
| 
| It's obvious, that these type of activities must be changed on part of 
| the police and On The Spot Fines must be stopped. When are they going to 
| 
| wake up?
| 
| Laszlo Balogh
| 
| 
| 

I agree with your principle - but did you pay the fines and
if you did why, and did you ask for a receipt?

Istvan

Impotentician None (Poetician1) wrote:

> In article >, . says...
> >pleeee
> >      z!
> >
> >clueless, (like always...)
> >
> >two for the road: hunky opens checking account and only writes checks in
> >the amount of "eleven" dollars... same guy learns new word fromm "Cops" tv
> >show,"pulover"
> >
> >concrete, huh!
> 
> The Princeton Encylcopedia compilers are astute enough to know what it is;
> obviously you fail to comprehend it. Your examples above fail even to mimic
> the concept of concrete poetry.

a big poet like you hiding behind the omnipotent encyclopedia...
what happened to your anti-establishment attitude ?

> CALLIGRAMME:
> ... takes its name from Guillaume 's figure-poems (ideogrammes
> lyriques, as he first called them) in his volume Calligrammes (1918). 

don't worry, no danger of confusion here - Apollinaire is a poet while
you are just an ASCII clown...

td

Olvastam, hogy Nadia Comaneci (Kemenes Ilona) egy magyar apja van 
(Gheorgie Comaneci - Kemenes György) és ezért Ilona egy félszarmású 
magyar. De azt nem hittem... Nadia Comaneci (fél)-magyar szarmású 
ember-e? Régen hallottam ezt. Még nem biztos vagyok. 

Peter Chong

Ui. Mi történt Ilonával 1980 után? Kíváncsi vagyok...

 wrote:
> 
> This movie is another of those "sleepers" as "The Usual Suspect" was,
> though it deserves more attention than it probably gets.  It also has a
> Hungarian "connection", though a more positive one than the other movie.
> 
> The title character of English Patient is actually a Hungarian, Count
> Laszlo Almasy who apparently got educated in England and became a
> member of the Royal Historical Society, participating in an archeological
> expedition in North Africa before WW II broke out. That's where the
> story starts and ends in Italy when the war ends, too.
> 
> The setting and the story has the air of "Casa Blanca" somewhat, I
> thought.  All in all, a pretty good movie, I think.
> 
> Anybody knows if it's and adaptation of some book?  From the Hungarian
> hero, it sounds it might have been something Baroness Orczy wrote.
> 
> Go and see it if you can!
> 
> Joe Pannon

My daughter has just told me that this movie is not only a good one but 
also has Marta Sebesten singing in it (as part of background music?). 
Amongst others she also sings Szerlem, szerelem. Marta has been acquiring 
quite an international reputation.
Laszlo H.

 (Rad Edelstein)wrote:
>|Wally, you're writing poetry here and [once again] you can't 
>|discern real facts from fantasy.

 (Wally Keeler) wrote:
>Paeans (nosegays) to Szarsescu had been written and published >by 
Rabbi Moses. This went above and beyond any requirements to >fulfill 
his task to serve exclusively the Romanian Jewish >community. Perhaps 
this could be
>sloughed off as part and parcel of the deal that the >conducator must, 
on a regular basis, be overtly hailed and >praised within an inch of 
God's face, in order to serve the >interest of a particular 
>ethnic/religious community. 

 (Rad Edelstein)wrote:
|It seems that I am not aware of the existance of such "out of |the 
ordinary" praises that Rosen gave to Ceausescu.  

Others in Usenet did a finer job than I could have of educating you in 
this regard.

 (Rad Edelstein)wrote:
>|As Chief Rabbi in Romania, Rosen's first duty was towards
>|Romanian Jews and he did not fail them.  

 (Wally Keeler) wrote:
>As I posted, he was a godsend to his own people. It is 
>understandable. The problem with this situation is that it >leads 
non-jews to the perception that Jews (& Germans) have >(for a price 
paid by foreigners) the unimaginable possibility >to leave the hell 
that was dictatorial Romania, whereas the >vast majority of Romanians & 
Romanian Magyars aren't worth >shit to anyone; indeed, the "export" of 
these "chosen" people >financed and lubricated the repressive machinery 
by which >everyone else suffered. 

 (Rad Edelstein)wrote:
|At the same time, you forget to mention that those that were |leaving 
usually had, for years, to endure hardships that "the |vast majority of 
Romanians & Romanian Magyars" did not have to |go through. 

I did not forget to mention any such thing. You may be reading poetry 
here and can't discern real facts from fantasy. The "hell that was 
dictatorial Romania" applied to everyone. The "vast majority of 
Romanians & Romanian Magyars" shared the same hell with one 
excrutiating difference, they could not entertain the HOPE of every 
leaving hell, ie. they were not worth shit to anyone. Indeed, the 
lifelong misery that the "vast majority of Romanians & Romanian 
Magyars" had to expect DID NOT finance and lubricate the repressive 
machinery by which everyone else suffered. 

 (Rad Edelstein)wrote:
|It wasn't as rosy as you paint it, Wally.

Unable to discern real facts from fantasy Rad? Where was the rosy 
picture that I allegedly painted? You are indulging in "poetry" 
yourself Rad, but that would be an insult to the concept of poetry. 
Poetry is often closer to the truth than mere facts or stats. Actually 
the rosy picture is a red herring that your unpurple prose is conjuring 
up -- clean your screen Rad.

 (Wally Keeler) wrote:
>If your position is to be accepted, that the Chief Rabbi's >first duty 
was towards Jews, then it must be understood that >the Pope's first 
duty during World War II was towards >Catholics (Polish & otherwise) 
and not towards other peoples, >nor the situation that other peoples 
found themselves in, >whether that was on a train to the camps or 
forced labour in a >munitions plant. This, of course, is what happened. 
I consider >it somewhat reprehensible on the part of the papacy, and I 
>consider your perception of Rabbi Rosen's similar action in >this 
regard, reprehensible.

 (Rad Edelstein)wrote:
|I don't think that comparing the Holocaust with Rosen's |actions is 
appropriate.

I am not comparing the Holocaust with Rosen's actions. I am comparing 
the Papacy's actions to Rosen's actions. The Papacy has been rightly 
criticized for its exclusive concern about the welfare of Catholics and 
remaining cruelly indifferent to the welfare of other peoples. This was 
in the circumstance of WW2, the Holocaust. We understand that the 
Papacy's first duty was towards Catholics. We understand that the first 
duty of the Chief Rabbi of Romania was towards Romanian Jews. Rosen 
turned his back to the plight of other peoples in Romania -- the 
Magyars, the Gypsies. The Magyars could leave Romania but only with the 
threat of a bullet in the back. The Gypsies were suffering from a 
progrom of arson, looting, murder, yet Rosen was concerned only about 
the sensitivities of Jews who had to endure anti-semetic publications. 
I am suggesting that the principles held by Rosen, that his first duty 
is towards Jews, would lead him to act in the same manner as the Papacy 
during the Holocaust, whose first duty was towards Catholics. This is 
demonstrated by his cruel indifference to the plight of the Gypsies, a 
people who also had suffered the exact same fate as the Jews in the 
Holocaust, and for the exact same reasons as the Jews. Rather than 
being "brothers" of the Holocaust, Rosen took the position of cruel 
indifference and the World Jewish Congress celebrated him. Perhaps it 
is no coincidence that that it took decades for the US Holocaust 
Memorial Committee to accept that Gypsies also deserved acknowledgement 
as brothers of suffering. Perhaps it is no coincidence that Romanian 
Eli Weisal was the chief antagonist against the idea of including 
Gypsies in the Holocaust Memorial Museum. 

I was not comparing conditions in dictatorial Romania with conditions 
in nazi Germany. 

 (Rad Edelstein)wrote:
>|As a negociator he had to make compromises, but he did not >|join the 
Communist party - your trying to tie him with the >|criminal decisions 
taken by Romania's communist bosses is >|ridiculous.  

 (Wally Keeler) wrote:
>He was an active fund raiser which financed the numerous >crimes of 
the communist bosses. Whether he was a party member >or not is 
irrevelevent. There is no evidence whatsoever that >he had funnelled 
even 1% of the collected funds towards any >"dissident" community. 
There is no evidence that he had ever >reached out in underground 
alliance with any "soulmates."
>Indeed, there is evidence that the Hungarian pastor, Laszlo >Tokes had 
reached out for Rabbi Rosen's hand in his hour of >need, and Rabbi 
Rosen scorned it & turned his back on the >non-Jew. 

 (Rad Edelstein)wrote:
|I have not heared of this.  Could you be more specific?

In December 1989, Laszlo Tokes was being persecuted for his stand 
against the dictatorshit. He had been terrorized inside his church. The 
Hungarian parliament had voted on a resolution that Laszlo Tokes and 
Doina Cornea should be jointly awarded the Nobel Peace prize.

"On December 8, Laszlo addressed a moving letter to Tamas Raj, a 
prominent rabbi in Hungary. He likened the situation of the Hungarians 
in Romania to that of the Jews -- a persecuted nation for whom the 
whole world had a duty to raise its voice. Laszlo had always maintained 
close relations with Erno Neumann, the local rabbi in Timisoara, and 
the Jewish congregation. However, he had failed in his attempts to gain 
support from the national Jewish leadership in Romania and especially 
the Chief Rabbi Moses Rosen. Laszlo called on Raj to lend his support. 
Laszlo's letter was smuggled out of Romania ansd reached Tamas Raj in 
Budapest late one night. ... Raj apologized for the hostility shown by 
his Romanian colleague, the Chief Rabbi Moses Rosen. 'The truth is that 
persecution often debases the persecutor, too,' he wrote."
                       -- In the Eye of the Romanian Storm
                          by Felix Corley & John Eibner, 1990
                          Fleming H. Revell Company
                          ISBN 0-8007-5379-8
                          
 (Wally Keeler) wrote:
>It was left to the Chief Rabbi of Hungary to apologize to >Tokes for 
his colleague's indifference. This was not a >"compromise" by Rabbi 
Rosen, this was a wilful abandonment of >all principles insofar as they 
applied to non-Jews. His >constituency was exclusively first and 
foremost. I can accept >this insofar it would also be acceptable for 
all the >variations of non-Jews to abandon Jews to whatever fate 
>befalls them in the name of placing non-Jews as exclusively >first and 
foremost. I personally don't buy this crap. 

 (Rad Edelstein)wrote:
|Maybe you'd like to remind me of ONE Gypsy leader who fought |for the 
rights of all Romanians.

We are not discussing Gypsy leaders here, we are discussing Romania's 
Jewish leader -- Moses Rosen. I can remind you that Laszlo Tokes, in 
the time prior to the revolution had fought for the rights of all 
Romanians. Did Rosen do as well? Or did Rosen deliberately and 
calculatingly turn a blind eye to the plight of other peoples? But to 
answer your question -- yes, perhaps Rosen was as ethnically selfish 
and ethnically self- centred as the Gypsy leadership.

 (Rad Edelstein)wrote:
>|The issue of Rosen's not doing enough for the rest of the 
>|Romanianpopulation is and will always remain open for 
>|interpretation.  

 (Wally Keeler) wrote:
>It's not that he did not do enough -- he did nothing, indeed, >he took 
decisions on behalf of his first duty that were >detrimental to others. 
It was not a legal necessity for him to >forbid the speaking of 
Hungarian in his vicinity or in the >vicinity of his interests, but he 
did it. Whether he
>took glee from this or not, I don't know. There is no room for
>interpretation in this regard, Rabbi Moses Rosen did nothing >for the 
rest of the Romanian population, indeed, I dare say he >was a negative 
factor to the rest of the Romanian population. >I will change my 
opinion in this regard -- but I would need to >know what it was that he 
did which was of benefit to ALL
>Romanians.

 (Rad Edelstein)wrote:
|I read an article by him which criricized the government's |actions of 
destroying churches, for example.  I do not think |that he had it as a 
purpose to hurt others in order to protect |Jews. 

Rabbi Rosen was an exceedingly intelligent man. He knew the 
consequences of all his actions. His actions were calculated to 
leverage maximum advantage for his constituency  and in this regard he 
was very very successful. He was fully cognizant that some of his 
actions would hurt others, but the benefit to his own constituency 
outweighed the hurt to those who were outside his constituency. 
Granted, he had to make very Solomon-like choices, however it must be 
recognized that the choices were founded on the premise of one people 
being of more value than another people. The consequence of such a 
position is that those peoples who were not of similar value, indeed, 
who were of disposable value, had every right to regard Rosen as a 
villain, and to scorn the World Jewish Congress for its decision to 
honour and celebrate such a villain.

 (Rad Edelstein)wrote:
>|My opinions follow bellow. First of all, two recent >|documentaries I 
saw on public TV (one on Burma and one on >|Cuba - dictatorial regimes 
like Romania's was), documented >|the fact that lack of foreign capital 
hurts primarily the >|people and much less the dictators and their 
antourage.  

 (Wally Keeler) wrote:
>Which is why we should all be actively encouraging trade with >Saddam 
Hussein, the Serbian regimes, etc. There are those who >claim that 
sanctions helped to change the situation in South >Africa -- I believe 
this to be bunk. It changed because of the >morality of its changed 
leadership. However, the lack of >foreign capital does PRIMARILY hurt 
the people -- I think the
>intent to make life so miserable for the people that they will 
>eventually rise up, spill enormous amounts of blood, and >change the 
leadershit, or sanctions will diminish the rate of >power-increase of 
the dictatorship -- It can no longer afford >to purchase 1,000 scud 
missiles, but will have to settle for >100. Perhaps the US should have 
continued or increased trade >with Hitler's regime, so that some jobs 
could be maintained, >some funds diverted to increase the efficiency of 
termination >camps, etc. I don't think so. Trade with Burma or Cuba is 
an >expression of the world's censure against the tyrants of those 
>countries. 

 (Rad Edelstein)wrote:
|I don't quite understand your stand on this.  Do such funds |trickle 
down or not?

They trickle down like tears on the face of a bereaved woman who is 
trying her damnedest to feed her malnourished child and failing and 
being forced to abandon her child to the cruelties of Romania's 
imfamous orphanages. This is poetry Rad, and it is far closer to the 
truth than your trickle-of-an-arguement in this instance.

 (Rad Edelstein)wrote:
>|Rosen brought capital to Romania (as his part of the bargain) >|and 
that trickled down to the average Romanian, even if only >|as a part of 
the state-sponsored salaries of those working in >|falimentary 
industries.

 (Wally Keeler) wrote:
>Including the bloated salaries of the Securitate & like >forces, as 
well as providing with capital to purchase >repressive equipment. 
Nothing trickled down to the average >Romanian other than continual 
infernal misery. This is a
>weak kneed justification if I ever heard one. Rosen brought >capital 
to Romania to help purchase the bulldozers that >destroyed the homes of 
those targetted for systemization, the >bulldozers which laid waste to 
downtown Bucharest so that the >Avenue of Ignominity could be built on 
the ruins of >architecturally splendid homes and buildings and a Palace 
of >Kitch could prevail over the trickled-on Romanians. Rosen >helped 
to finance this crime against Romanians while at the >same time 
greasing the machine for Jews to escape this >cultural atrocity. 

 (Rad Edelstein)wrote:
|There is truth in what you say.  Yet, I can not condemn Rosen |for it.

I can, because he aided and abetted it with foreign capital.

 (Rad Edelstein)wrote:
|Rosen created a miracle that was not equaled in other EE |Jewish 
communities.  

The miracle existed only for a tiny minority, and there was a price to 
be paid by a vast majority for this miracle. Rosen, inadvertently 
provided fodder for Romanian anti-semites who could point to the 
"miracle" for the Chosen People while the rest of must suffer under the 
yoke of foreign-financed repressions with no HOPE of escape.

 (Rad Edelstein)wrote:
|The question is simply whether he could have achieved what he |did 
without bringing money and clout to the communist |dictatorship and my 
answer is no.  

I agree. But those who had NO HOPE of escape can rightly hate one of 
the Chief Financeers of that CLOUT.

 (Rad Edelstein)wrote:
|The Russian alternative (the tens of thosands of Jews sent to 
|Siberia) does not evoke any thanks from today's Russians, or |anybody 
else, for that matter.

But when the World Jewish Congress choses to celebrate the likes of 
Anatole Scharansky, then the rest of the world rightly applauds such a 
celebration of an honourable man.

 (Rad Edelstein)wrote:
>|The issue of oposing the regime is the one that many bring >|up.  
From the point of view of Romanian Jews he did so and he >|masterfully 
managed to bring to us a positive result.

 (Wally Keeler) wrote:
>Acknowledged.

 (Rad Edelstein)wrote:
>|From the point of view of other Romanians, I do not believe >|that he 
had a chance of doing much more than what he did, >|without being 
labeled as a "foreign agent" and wounding up as >|a martyr for us, 
Romanian Jews, and as just some other victim >|for the rest of the 
Romanians.

 (Wally Keeler) wrote:
>Laszlo Tokes had the courage to be labelled as a "foreign >agent" and 
was so-labelled, and persecuted with violence, >abduction, and some of 
his immediate supporters were martyred, >and they were acting for the 
Hungarian community, the Romanian >community, and the Jewish community 
-- his vision was not >narrowly focussed. Tokes, in this regard, 
deserved to be >celebrated by many communities, whereas, Rosen can be 
>celebrated only by one community. 

 (Rad Edelstein)wrote:
|Many Romanian Jews (almost all non-religious) have views |similar to 
yours (about Rosen). I do not. I don't think I |need remind you that 
Tokes is not a hero for the Romanians and |that the view is closer to 
what I described the view on Rosen |would have been.  In the West and 
among some Romanians in
|diaspora Tokes gets the desrved recognition, but not so in |Romania. 

There are reasons why Tokes is not a hero among most Romanians in 
Romania.

 (Wally Keeler) wrote:
>Indeed, I recall in 1990 that the newspapers in Toronto >published 
several column inches of copy of Rabbi Moses Rosen >suggesting that the 
few remaining Jews should be airlifted out >of Romania because of rise 
in anti-semitism as manifested in
>various publications let loose in Romania and some incidents >of 
vandalism. At this very same time, Gypsy villages were >being sacked, 
hundreds of Gypsy homes were burnt to the >ground, some Gypsy children 
murdered and/or maimed as a result >of a quasi-Kristalnight. There were 
no column inches for these
>particular lethal atrocities, and not a single word from Rabbi >Rosen. 
Burnt homes and murder compared to anti-semitic >publications and 
vandalism! Let the Gypsies as a people burn >in hell, we have to save 
the first and foremost from >publications insulting the chosen people. 
This was Rabbi >Rosen's policy, even after the dictatorshit was 
murdered. 

 (Rad Edelstein)wrote:
|I think you're right.  Rosen shold have asked for the Gypsies |to be 
airlifted to Israel, as well?!? I have seen Gypsies |being hunted by 
the miners in 1990 and I have posted my |impressions on scr several 
times.  A while ago I debated
|with Lutas the theory that Gypsies were supporters of PDSR and
|Iliescu.  As I said, during the years I lived in Bucharest I |lived 
around Gypsies and I had many Gypsy friends and |acquaintances. Despite 
all this I do not see why it would have |been more appropriate for 
Rosen to give more priority to |anything else than his perceived danger 
to the remnants of the |Jewish community in Romania (BTW, it seems that 
here he was |wrong in assesing such danger).

I regard the Jewish people as possessing a special radar. History has 
bequeathed the Jewish people with a sensitivity for crimes against 
humanity. From Moses to Christ and beyond, the Jews have been the 
target of ethnic/religious/people against people animosities. Rosen 
missed the boat in this instance.

 (Rad Edelstein)wrote:
>|I will repeat again my assesment that Jews should not have >|any role 
in Romanian politics, at least until the mentality >|there will change. 
Until then, the Jews will be targets and >|there will be no positive 
acknowledgement, even when they do >|a great job.

 (Wally Keeler) wrote:
>The Jewish community should get actively involved in politics >in 
order to actively change the mentality you speak of. The >Jewish 
community could do this by taking the posture/position >of acting in 
the best interests of the entire Romanian >community and not just in 
the interest of the Jewish >community. That Romanians might have this 
misperception was >created in part by people like Rabbi Rosen who 
worked, in >collaboration with Jewish communities and organizations 
>abroad, to serve the exclusive interests of Jews to the >complete 
indifference to any other community. In a democratic >environment, such 
a policy as you suggest should be actively >pissed on.

 (Rad Edelstein)wrote:
|What years are you reffering to here, Wally?  What "democratic
|environment are you talking about?

In contrast to Szarcescu, almost anything would be democratic. 

 (Rad Edelstein)wrote:
>|The current US Ambassador had been targeted from the >|beginning, by 
ALL political factions in Romania.  He was >|suspected from the 
beginning, for no other reason than for >|being a Jew. 

>The same situation applies to Romanian Gypsies.

 (Rad Edelstein)wrote:
>|Let me just say this: when
>|Ms. Young was Amabassador, her actions and comments were >|under no 
special scrutiny; during those times Romania's >|orientation was still 
towards the East. Since Moses was sent >|to Romania, the shift towards 
the West was visible and with >|more substantial results.  

 (Wally Keeler) wrote:
>You give her too much credit. I believe this shift would have 
>occurred in the abscence of Moses.

 (Rad Edelstein)wrote:
|I know, it may be coincidental.  Same as the Jews forming a |large 
minority in Spain during Spain's being a power, Holland |during 
Holland's being a power, the British Empire during its |being a power, 
and the US's during its being a power.  People |have different views on 
these, especially about the |cause-effect order.

Of course, when Rabbi Rosen was active, Romania shifted towards the 
West. We can lay the success of Most Favoured Nation status at his 
feet. This was substantial. Then in comes the ineffectual Christian 
(Young) to change the orientation back to the East, until the 
influential Jew (Moses) returned to turn it back West. This is all 
crap.

 () wrote:
>George Szaszvari > wrote:

>>Congrats to the Romanian people and good luck to Constantinescu, et al.

>Right on!  I think with this move, Romania positioned herself to the
>first tier of countries to be admitted to NATO and EU along with
>Hungary.  Just watch the news commentaries to that effect!
>But you heard it from me first. ;-) 

Hi Joe:

Suprisingly enough, I think that you are right.  Given how long the
West has been keeping Hungary, Poland and the Czech Republics waiting,
I hadn't expect to start hearing Romania mentioned as a likely member
of the  first tier group within the first two weeks of the democratic
triumph, yet I have.

To a large extent, I think that we owe you guys quite a bit for your
diplomatic efforts at pushing NATO and the EU to accept the concept of
expansion.  (That couldn't have been easy, given the political dwarves
who lead most of the west now.)  By accepting Romania as well as
Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary, NATO effectively cuts a
revanchist Russia from the Balkans, giving those countries a chance to
settle down without too much medeling -- especially during democratic
uprisings like the one now wracking Serbia.  However, NATO expansion
seems certain to leave the Baltic Republics out in the cold.  And
they, unlike the Caucuses, are ready for inclusion into NATO, and
they, unlike Ukraine, don't have enough military strength to stand up
by themselves, without ending up looking like the ruins of Grozny.

Alexander

Laszlo Horvath  > wrote:

>My daughter has just told me that this movie is not only a good one but 
>also has Marta Sebesten singing in it (as part of background music?). 
>Amongst others she also sings Szerlem, szerelem. Marta has been acquiring 
>quite an international reputation.

Oh, shux!  I forgot to mention Marta Sebestyen's singing though she was
the reason why I started looking for the Hungarian connection in the
movie.  The movie starts off with a song of hers in the background and
later on Almasy plays a record of one of her songs to his love who asked
if the song was Arabic.  That's when he said it was a Hungarian folk
song and mentioned that he grew up in Budapest.

The movie is fairly long (about 2 and a half hours), but you don't
notice it because it's so good. The critics already betting on it
sweeping the next Oscar awards.

BTW, while talking about movies ... I've also seen the trailer of Madonna's
"Evita" which looks like a monstre production.  Wasn't this movie shot
in Budapest?  I seem to recall some discussion about it on Internet
while the shooting was going on and caused traffic problems in Budapest.

Joe

) writes:
> From OMRI news:
>>. . . WHILE HIS PARTY CRITICIZES HUNGARIAN PRESENCE IN NEW GOVERNMENT.
>>Adrian Nastase, executive chairman of the Party of Social Democracy in
>>Romania (PDSR), said the participation of the Hungarian Democratic
>>Federation of Romania (UDMR) in the new government coalition is likely
>>to mean that government debates will not remain confidential that
>>information will be leaked to the Hungarian government, Radio Bucharest
>>reported on 26 November.
> 
> When I read news like this, I keep wondering what has changed with
> signing of the basic treaty?  After all, Romanian officials keep looking
> at their own citizens of Hungarian background

Or only looking at officials of UDMR.

> as agents of the Hungarian
> government, weather they have proof for it or not.

You mean to say that even if there is proof that some, a few, are agents
for the Hungarian govt, Romanian oficials should still not look at them as
if they were? If there is NO proof, then of course you have a point.

> Besides, just what could those possible Hungarians in the Romanian
> government leak to Budapest that they are so worried about?  Their
> secret plans against Hungary?  From their paranoia, I have a hard time
> to think of anything else.  It seems like a prime example of Byzantine
> mind set; always assumes the worst of the other side.
> Joe

From the point of view of a federalist Canadian, I want to keep a close
eye on the activities of the Bloc Quebecois, especially in relation to
France. There is a cosy relationship with the seperatists/sovereignists
and France. Canadians would be fools not to think that France would have a
beneficial interest in Quebec's "independence." It is not simply a matter
of assuming the worse on the other side, but of assuming the natural stand
that the other side will act in its own best interest and that the best
interest of one side does not always coincide with the best interest of
the other side. Such things as ethnic loyalties exist and that in some
individuals this overrides "national" loyalties.

CLARY Olivier > wrote:
>
>But I understand why you heard about "nearest country": inside EU there
>is an agreement that refugee status can be asked only at the first
>EU country you set your foot into.

Well, it may be only within Europe, but it makes eminent sense to me.
You have to wonder what kind of refugees are those which can pick their
host country as those Africans or Asians turning up in Hungary.  I know
I would not have gotten to the US myself directly, but had to wait it
out in an Italian refugee camp, hoping my application to the Us would be
accepted.  And I never had the idea that they had an obligation to take
me.

Joe

In article >,  > wrote:
| CLARY Olivier > wrote:
| >
| >But I understand why you heard about "nearest country": inside EU there
| >is an agreement that refugee status can be asked only at the first
| >EU country you set your foot into.
| 
| Well, it may be only within Europe, but it makes eminent sense to me.
| You have to wonder what kind of refugees are those which can pick their
| host country as those Africans or Asians turning up in Hungary.  I know
| I would not have gotten to the US myself directly, but had to wait it
| out in an Italian refugee camp, hoping my application to the Us would be
| accepted.  And I never had the idea that they had an obligation to take
| me.

Back then Italy and Hungary shared borders? ;)

Seriously.. so if we were a little further east and not had
Austria as a neighbor should Hungarian refugees looked for
help in Romania Yugoslavia, Czechslovakia and the USSR?

Istvan

 says...
>>Go back to your pseudo republic of pseudo poetry (propp).
>>This is a friendly warning from the friendly vital organ.

Poetician1 wrote: 
>So nice to have you back and paying attention to the
>favourite subject matter -- ME. I note that no one took up the
>offer to the former thread to discuss YOU. BTW, there is no 
>other subject matter than ME that you have posted about the 
>past month or so.

td >: Fri, 29 Nov 1996
|interesting way to look at things when somebody is making fun
|of you big time 

Oh Tudor, I have been called much worse things more effectively
than by the likes of the mediocre mediogre that you are. Big
time? Your stuff? It is to snicker. 

|and you run out of tricks... 

I never run out of tricks. I just decide once in a while to turn
it off -- depends on the worthiness of the target, or the
inspiration of the target, or my mood. In any event, on
comparison with you, the little dima-witted mediogre who is
bereft of any tricks, well...

|if you enjoy being the topic regardless of what is being said
|of you, I suggest you to skip your next opus an replace it with
|"MASOCHILIA - A COLLECTION OF DEFACING POSTS AGAINST wally
|keeler" td

You see, you are expressing interest in my psychological
configuration. Interestingly, no one is interested in yours nor
in your ally -- Goober Barfsai. You are lei-zy characters --
about 10 lei-zeeeeeeee.

 () wrote:

>I'd just like to add my agreement to Peter's last sentence: indeed,
>Romanians have a lesson to teach to Hungarians with this election.
>On the other hand, I hope they also learned from the experience of
>Hungary and Poland: unless this government makes some noticeable
>improvements in the economy during its tenure, the voters will likely
>bring back the old commies in the next election.

Hi Joe:

Ironically, I think that part of the reason why Hungarian and Polish
voters could return their reform communists to power was because both
the Polish and the Hungarian communist parties were comparatively
"soft". 

Romania's communist experiences was so much worse, that it would take
something *really* bad for the communists to have had a chance in
really fair and free elections, and with the incredible mess of things
that they did over the past seven years, I don't think that Romania
will be cursed with them again.

Nonetheless, your point that Romania should look at the experiences of
Hungary, Poland and, I would add, the Czech Republic, the only Central
European country to avoid a return of communists to power, is very
accurate.  Let Romania find at least a little benefit from starting
her reforms sevens years later than her neighbors.

Alexander

In article >  writes:
>[...] International conventions
>only oblige states nearest to the refugee's origin to provide assistance,

Not at all. The Geneve convention about refugees defines what is the
"persecution" that someone has to fear in his/her own country to be
declared a refugee, and all signatory countries (like all of EU) cannot
make a distinction between such a refugee and their own nationals. (This
is what I heard in about 1987 from a Hungarian guy who managed to get
refugee status in France - at the last moment when it could be done.)
But I understand why you heard about "nearest country": inside EU there
is an agreement that refugee status can be asked only at the first
EU country you set your foot into.
-- 
-- Olivier Clary   mailto:   http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1326/
Me'te'o-France/CNRM/Groupe Mode'lisation pour Assimiln. et Pre'vision, Toulouse
Aussi loin qu'est l'orient de l'occident, Il met loin de moi mes fautes --Ps103
Se nem kicsi, se nem nagy, / E'ppen hozza'm valo' vagy!  (Lakodalmas -Te'ka e.)

In article >  () writes:
>From OMRI news:
>>Adrian Nastase, executive chairman of the Party of Social Democracy in
>>Romania (PDSR), [...]
>[...] Romanian officials keep looking at their own citizens of Hungarian
>background as agents of the Hungarian government, [...]

PDSR has been rejected by recent votes, they are no longer the official word.
Their attitude above is logical, this is what they said between the two rounds
of the presidential election: if Iliescu is not elected, the Huns will come
with their arrows (I am only slightly exaggerating)
-- 
-- Olivier Clary   mailto:   http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1326/
Me'te'o-France/CNRM/Groupe Mode'lisation pour Assimiln. et Pre'vision, Toulouse
Aussi loin qu'est l'orient de l'occident, Il met loin de moi mes fautes --Ps103
Se nem kicsi, se nem nagy, / E'ppen hozza'm valo' vagy!  (Lakodalmas -Te'ka e.)

In article >,
	 (Wally Keeler) writes:
 
 
> You mean to say that even if there is proof that some, a few, are agents
> for the Hungarian govt, Romanian oficials should still not look at them as
> if they were? If there is NO proof, then of course you have a point.

Have you ever seen such a proof?
Just wondering...

Zoli
-- 
http://dipmza.physik.uni-mainz.de/~gagyi_palffy/homepage.html

Except on <http://www.travelfirst.com>;, do you know any homepage about
MALEV on the net' ?
You who travelled with this airline, please provide us reports and
opinions concerning comfort, F&B, security, service.
Thank you very much.
Inirsort Bourges
E-mail:>
<http://www.travelfirst.com>;
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
      http://www.dejanews.com/     Search, Read, Post to Usenet

>In ...
>>pleeee
>>      z!
>>
>>clueless, (like always...)
>>
>>two for the road: hunky opens checking account and only
>>writes checks in the amount of "eleven" dollars... same guy
>>learns new word fromm "Cops" tv show,"pulover"
>>
>>concrete, huh!

Impotentician None (Poetician1) wrote:
>The Princeton Encylcopedia compilers are astute enough to
>know what it is; obviously you fail to comprehend it. Your 
>examples above fail even to mimic the concept of concrete 
>poetry.

td >
|a big poet like you hiding behind the omnipotent
|encyclopedia...what happened to your anti-establishment
|attitude ?

Impaired posting again my little dima-witted mediogre? Your
blood/sillimess reading is 3.9 today. "Honest Occifer, I was
only doing 60 baud per second; I didn't notice the GPF -- I
thought the space-bar was an outasight place for a drink." A
little dimawit like you hiding behind a facade of sophomoronic
banality is a bit like a mouse caught in a Swiss cheese hole.

> CALLIGRAMME:
> ... takes its name from Guillaume 's figure-poems
> (ideogrammes lyriques, as he first called them) in his volume 
> Calligrammes(1918). 

|don't worry, no danger of confusion here - Apollinaire is a
|poet while you are just an ASCII clown...
|td

I certainly am an upperclascii rasciil whereascii you are a mere
jackascii which I can surpascii when the mood strikes me . You
are just asciing for it aren't you? I could kick your ascii all
over this amusenet and still be szarkascii enough to embarascii
you in any listserb. In any event, I am not fool enough to
compare myself to Apollinaire's ouevre -- it is sufficient for me
here to compare myself to your omlette, cracked shell and all.
Like I said, I'm B+ to your B-anal.

willy, the canadian pseudo poet and artificial artist wrote:
>>slumming in SCM and posting mediocre come-backs. You've
>>become a mediogre. If you continue to cruise the information
>>highway, I would advise that you avoid the cul-de-sacaca's you
>>often find yourself in.

 (Gabor Barsai)
||...said the speck of dust. Willy, you need a cerebral
||enhance-o-tron, you are so lame. So jejune.

willy, the canadian pseudo poet and artificial artist wrote:
>Intelligent people know better than to waste their time
>responding to the jejune. But then again, I was just trolling
>for the likes of you. Sucker!

|Heck, you just prove my point, 

What, that you are not intelligent people? Give me back that
"jejune" hook from your throat -- I'm throwing you back into the
AMUSENET pool for bigger catch -- td has stronger gills to deal
with than a campus studless like you.

|which was that you are a hypocrite. If you are jejune, by
|definition, you can't be creative. Double whammy!

It's all hypocrite hype. If I were jejune you'd be right, but
I'm not. Relative to you, I got the w/rite stuff, you got the
leftovers.

>>Go back to your pseudo republic of pseudo poetry (propp).
>>This is a friendly warning from the friendly vital organ.
>>Gabor
>
>So nice to have you back and paying attention to the favourite
>subject matter -- ME. I note that no one took up the offer to
>the former thread to discuss YOU. 

|Because they know that they would be humiliated by my superior
|knowledge - just as you have been.

td knows better than to squander his meagre resources on the
likes of you. td does not prefer to tangle with the weak -- he
has no interest in the bronz when he can go for the gold -- ME,
not you, ME. The subject matter is still ME, not you, ME. td has
no interest in you -- he has an interest in ME. No one has an
interest in you in any regard. I am a worthy target, not you.
You are a fucken pushovary.

>BTW, there is no other subject matter than ME that you have
>posted about the past month or so.

willy, your simian countenance suggests a heritage unusually
rich in species diversity.
Gabor

Nevertheless, your prime interest and virtually only interest on
SCM is ME. I am the centre of your attention; I am your AMUSENET
career; I am your irritainment.

In article >, Miha Ahronovitz > wrote:
>Wally, the question whether a Chief Rabbi should worry about jews or 
>universally about everyone is speculative.
>
>If you had a fight with your wife ( or I have afight with my wife), then you 
>make up (or I make up).
>
>We are then selfcentered egotists. Instead of doing something for the millions
 
> and tens of millions, and hundred of millions of couple who go throgh the 
>tearing down experience of fights, we simply made it up ONLY with our wifes!

But then why do keep Jews harping on the Catholic Church and the Pope
that they did not care about saving Jews as much as saving Catholics?
I think this was one of the central points of Wally's argument.
BTW, I don't agree though that the Church or Pope did nothing for saving
Jews.  Only that they could have done more, but even that is with 20/20
hindsight.

Joe

>
>                               Inquiry on MALEV
>                                       
>   From: 
>   Reply to: 
>   Date: Sun, 01 Dec 1996 07:11:03 -0600
>   Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service
>   Newsgroups:
>          hun.news,
>          soc.culture.magyar,
>          bit.listserv.hungary,
>          hun.net
>   Followup to: newsgroup(s)
>
>Except on <http://www.travelfirst.com>;, do you know any homepage about
>MALEV on the net' ?
>You who travelled with this airline, please provide us reports and
>opinions concerning comfort, F&B, security, service.
>Thank you very much.
>Inirsort Bourges
>E-mail:>
><http://www.travelfirst.com>;
>-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
>      http://www.dejanews.com/     Search, Read, Post to Usenet



	Two years ago I've chosen Delta to fly to Hungary
	with  1) I'm a Delta freq. flyer and 2) the fact
	that I would be landing in Budapest at 7:30 a.m.
	without having to change planes first in another
	city in Europe.

	Malev is as good an airline as any of the other 
	major carriers regarding comfort, timeliness,
	service, security -- my only negative thought is
	I dislike supporting a government that parades
	the same old faces with different titles.....

	If that is no consideration for you, I would
	encourage you to reserve a seat.

	Julie

Wally, the question whether a Chief Rabbi should worry about jews or 
universally about everyone is speculative.

If you had a fight with your wife ( or I have afight with my wife), then you 
make up (or I make up).

We are then selfcentered egotists. Instead of doing something for the millions 
 and tens of millions, and hundred of millions of couple who go throgh the 
tearing down experience of fights, we simply made it up ONLY with our wifes!

In the heat of the argument, you insulted our intelligence. I respect yours!

miha