On Mon, 11 Mar 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:

> I believe Eva Balogh is a liberal.  I'm not.  At least not in the sense that
> she is.  I find contradictory statements troublesome.  Some people seem to
> live with them quite comfortably.

Joe,

I am not about to debate your views, but as far as I am concerned, Eva is
not a "liberal" in the traditional sense of the word.

You are basing your assessments on the following sentence???

> >Here and there there is such a thing as altruism, compassion, and other
> >decent things in life.

There is not an iota of contradiction between fiscal responsibility,
accountable government AND humanitarianism!
                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The above are the things Eva advocates.  I can't find anything wrong with it.

Martha

Martha S. Bihari
e-mail: 

Gentlemen!

I have posted the original enquiry regarding the "Bubos Kemence". I am as
new to the NET and the news groups as a "napos csirke"! I am hungarian. I
do write, speak and read hungarian, (probably better then english, or I
my say that I forgot one and never mastered the other!). I don't know who
is going to get this posting, but I welcome your direct e-mail to
http:.

Thanks,

Jozsi Udvarhelyi Hill

>
> They could not afford them then, they cannot afford them now. What solution
> do you suggest? Please, no generalities but concrete, realistic solutions,
> for Hungary.
>

Your "concrete and realistic" solutions in capitalism
were all tried (high tax/lowtax, state/private etc).
So my solution of democratic public control seems
the most practical to me.
Eva Durant

HI!

I am interested in things of Hungary. Is there any book or literature,
or anything i can get, that is good for knowing hungary?

So okada  international christain university


ffffffffffffffffffffsdfsdfsdfsf

At 07:30 10/03/96 -0800, Eva S. Balogh  answered my post:

<snip snip snip>

Thank you, Eva! It's great to get the background to some of the stories I've
been reading in MOZAIK, etc.

By the way, I saw a book in the Pu:ski-Corvin catalog by a lady named *E'va
S. Puska's-Balogh* which was titled *Foltos Emle'kek*. Is that you, by any
chance?

Yours,

Johanne

Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 
>

At 01:59 09/03/96 -0500, Sam Stowe wrote:
>In article >, "Johanne L. Tournier"
> writes:
>
>>Sam -
>>
>>Now you're the one who sounds like you've lost it. I have tried to think
>of
>>a post from Janos that sounds like "anti-American revisionist drivel,"
>but
>>so help me, I haven't been able to think of any.
>>
<snip snip>
>
>Johanne:
>Try reading what he had to say at the start of the World War I post, then
>get back to me.
>Sam Stowe

OK, Sam, I did it. It took a while, but I went back to what I think is the
beginning of the thread, and the only thing I found which could be remotely
considered "anti-American" was Janos's comment that by 1917, America could
probably see which side was going to win, and that it wouldn't hurt an
up-and-coming superpower to jump in on the winning side.

Perhaps this view deserves a little more scrutiny. While Eva B. is right
that one has to be careful not to retrospectively apply truths which appear
obvious in hindsight, I would suggest that it was believed at the turn of
the century that America was a developing superpower - after all it is well
known that someone at the time (sorry, I do not have the cite at my
fingertips) referred to the 20th.century as "the American century". Although
the outcome of the war may not have been obvious at the time, I would be
doggone sure that the English, especially, felt that it would be vital to
the Allied effort to have America in on their side, and that in fact it
might tip the balance in favour of the Allies, which it indeed seems to have
done.

After Janos posted that initial message, I also saw a message in which he
clearly deferred to your and Eva Balogh's superior knowledge on the subject.
His attitude did not seem unreasonable to me, although it seemed obvious
that his language was a little labored at times, because he is not a native
English speaker, and these arguments are pretty subtle after all.

What I see, is a person (Janos) who was trying to suggest that all evil was
not on the side of the Central Powers and all good was not on the side of
the Allies. Knowing what little I do about WWI, I would tend to agree with
him. You may say that you were not trying to suggest that his grandfather
was a barbarian, but isn't that in fact what you were implying by jumping
all over his argument? You may not have meant it that way, but indeed it
could have been taken that way.

Isn't his point of view as worthy of respect as yours? And isn't it
necessary to be able to discuss such differing points of view calmly and
rationally?

I look forward to reading continued vigorous debate on the issues in this Group
!

Thanks for your consideration,

Johanne

Johanne L. Tournier

part 3.

Three other European countries, England, Italy and France, and two North
American ones, the United States and Canada, also attracted Hungarian
students-in-exile. These countries offered only limited financial aid to
refugee students and few scholarships. Italy where economic conditions were
particularly grave in 1957, offered a few grants to students, but most
students eventually left the country and continued their studies elsewhere.
By October l957 in England 200 Hungarian students out of 550, in France
about 400 out of 670, in Canada 476 out of 958 and in the USA 658 out of
1726 were still without financial means to continue their studies. The
Report of the National Conference of Canadian Universities remains silent
on the number of students constituting the proportion of Hungarians who
settled in Australia (15,090) as well as in New Zealand and the Union of
South Africa.  The United States and Australia opposed the granting of
scholarships to the Hungarian refugee students. At the United Nations
Refugee Fund Executive Committee meeting in Geneva on 30 January 1957 the
representatives of these countries suggested that it was useless to let
refugees sutdents study the arts, sociology and similar programs that would
not lead to sought after employment. Australia's representative, Mr.
Currie, declared that "Governments could not be expected to subscribe to
the university education of refugee students when many of their own
nationals were unable to obtain equivalent education."  To avoid
controversy, the Ford Foundation provided one million dollars for 530
scholarships for two-year study but only in  Europe.  The Rockefeller
=46oundation concentrated its scholarships inside Austria. Hungarian
political =E9migr=E9s, Free Europe, and the CIA also provided European
scholarships perhaps hoping to  keep the students politically active and in
Europe.  Neither Otto Habsburg nor Ferenc Marosi, a member of an obscure
Hungarian government-in-exile in Spain, were able to dissuade refugee
students from leaving for Canada.   Most Hungarian refugee students,
however,  preferred to complete their studies and build a new life far from
the turmoil of life in Eastern Europe.

        The Canadian public, especially the university students, responded
generously to the plight of the Hungarian refugees. When the student
councils of the universities in Toronto and British Columbia ignored pleas
to aid the refugee students their members forced them to "salute the
students of Hungary" and launch relief drives.  The College of Christ the
King (London, Ontario) offered one complete scholarship to a male Catholic.
The students of Acadian University raised $150 and their administrators
offered one scholarship. Those from Queen's donated $1,600. Carleton
students organized a walk-a-thon, the students' council at Saskatchewan
voted $1,000 for scholarships, McGill's student council offered $500, the
University of Montreal students raised $650 and, in Toronto, the student
council promised $1,200.      The Imperial Oil company indicated that they
would provide ten to fifteen thousand dollars for scholarships.   By
January 7, 1957, the World University Service of Canada secured 60 full
scholarships at Canadian universities for the 1957/58 academic year.
Hungarian refugee students on their way to Canada had reason to have faith
in the generosity of the Canadian people.

        On this sentiment did  J.W. Pickersgill, Canada's Minister of
Citizenship and Immigration, build his policy concerning the movement of
Hungarian refugee students to Canada. During the autumn of 1956 the
post-war Canadian economy was growing rapidly. The booming economy created
a demand for labour in most parts of the country. Skilled labour,
particularly,  was in high demand. The universities were expanding. Ottawa
with its fiscal house in good order increased its financial support of the
universities and embarked upon a major immigration program. The demographic
consequences of the Suez Crisis and the Hungarian Revolution became the
solution to Ottawa's labour shortage problem. The humanitarian and
anti-communist sentiments of most Canadians and Pickersgill's recognition
of the special value of highly educated immigrants made possible the
special emphasis that the minister could place on the bringing of the
Hungarian refugees, and in particular the university students amongst them,
to Canada.
*  *  *
        The Canadian Embassy in Vienna showed a keen interest in these
students at the very beginning of the Magyar exodus. In December 1957 it
identified the Forestry Group as well as the Sopron Technical Group's 63
technical students (52 from geodetic, 29 oil mineralogy students, 10 from
geology and 14 from geophysics) as promising candidates for immigration.
The immigration officer on duty at the embassy was ready to brief his
minister.

 "I arrived in Vienna,"  recalled Pickersgill later, "on Saturday
afternoon, December 1, 1956 for a visit which lasted three days. As soon as
I arrived I met with the Canadian immigration officers and the officials
of our embassy. . . .During my visit I received constant help from the late
Gordon Cox, a senior officer in our embassy. Gordon Cox told me about the
Sopron University of Forestry on the day I arrived in Vienna. Cox had
received a visit from Dean Roller who had come to Vienna to explore the
possibility of having the faculty move to Canada and settle in a University
as a unit."

Pickersgill accepted the idea instantly. Through his wife in Ottawa he
contacted James Sinclair, the federal Minister of Fisheries, who was at his
home in Vancouver, and asked him to  discuss the matter with their mutual
friend, N.A.M. Mackenzie, head of the University of British Columbia.
Sinclair, within hours after talking to Pickersgill, went to see MacKenzie
at the President's House on the campus. Sinclair promised to do everything
he could to assist these refugees. He suggested that the forest industries
be involved in the effort. The names of the Foley brothers came up. Later
on Sunday, Sinclair returned to Mackenzie's home with Harold and Joe Foley
of the Powell River Corporation. George Allen, Dean of Forestry at U.B.C.,
and one of Foleys' officers also participated in the renewed discussion.
By Sunday evening Sinclair had a promise that the University of British
Columbia would receive the Sopron forestry engineering faculty in the
ensuing academic year and that the Powell River Paper Company would provide
a home at Powell River lumber camp for the Hungarians until it was time to
move to the university in the fall of 1957.  At midnight Vienna time the
Minister of Fisheries immediately telephoned the news to Pickersgill. Next
morning Pickersgill, accompanied by Gordon Cox, motored  to meet the
forestry students and their professors at St. Wolfgang, Austria.

                Pickersgill informed the Hungarians that the University of
British Columbia was willing to accept them as a separate faculty and that
a lumber camp would be their  home  until September. Dean Roller, leader of
the Soproners recalled

Mr. Pickersgill informed us about the conditions we could expect: the
=46aculty of Forestry of the University of British Columbia in Vancouver had
offered to "adopt" the Sopron University of Forestry en masse and to
guarantee its maintenance for five years until the current students
graduated.

The invitation was accepted. Pickersgill learned from the Forestry Group
that there were other faculty members present at the camp from the
University of Sopron, professors and students mainly from mining and oil
engineering,  the Technical Group. Pickersgill promised to embrace their
cause as well. From The Hague he telephoned Sidney Hook, the President of
the University of Toronto, with his request. "Sidney Hook took a deep
breath and then answered without any qualifications, 'You can count on us.'
"   Then Pickersgill began to make practical arrangements. He arranged a
mid-January passage for the Forestry Group  and decided to send two
professors and two students by the Canadian Pacific Airlines to British
Columbia to prepare the groundwork. He asked James Sinclair to contact
Hungarian Canadians in Vancouver and ask for cooperation.   In addition,
Pickersgill  ordered his deputy, Laval Fortier, to get in touch with Victor
Sifton,  the Chancellor of the University of Manitoba,  and tell him the
following about the Soproners:

 These young men are the kind of people we need in Canada to advance our
mineral frontiers just as the earlier immigrants your father brought to
Canada advanced our agricultural frontiers...great asset for Canada. . . .I
am appealing to you personally to lend your active support to the
establishment of the Sopron students and faculty in Canada. . .  my
department is ready and anxious to move them.

By the time this telegram was fired off, Pickersgill had already asked Paul
Hellyer,  minister without portfolio in the federal government, to explore
the possibilities  in Toronto for the Technical Group.  Ambassador
Macdonald reported from Vienna to External Affairs somewhat apologetically:
Pickersgill wishes everything to be done immediately.   Laval Fortier
wanted to involve French Canada. He contacted the Rural Settlement Society
in Quebec asking them to consult French Canadian universities in Quebec
about the acceptance of the Sopron Technical Group.   He warned Pickersgill
that the University of Syracuse was also trying to settle the Soproners --
in the USA. Thirty from the Sopron group had already gone to the United
Kingdom.


Peter I. Hidas

Hungarian Studies
Department Of Russian and Slavic Studies
McGill University
Montreal, Quebec, Canada

At 11:28 PM 3/10/96 -0500, Greg Kudasz wrote:
>Hello,
>
>I have found a couple of links on the web with my last name on them. I know
>next to nothing about my Hungarian heritage thanks in part to an introverted
>father who came here from Budapest in 1954. I'm not even sure how prevalent
>"Kudasz" is in Hungary.
>
>If you can provide a translation or any info about the following links I'd
>be grateful.
>
>thanks
>
>http://garfield.sote.hu/sote/tt_ersebp.html
>http://agy.bgytf.hu/public/keletm/doc/96_6_3.html

        I will check out the web sites for you but for the time being here
are a couple of things I know about the family name Kudasz. It is a very
uncommon name but there have been a couple of famous Kudaszes. One I knew
personally: Jozsef Kudasz (1904-1981--Mezokovesd--Budapest) who was a famous
surgeon. The first man in Hungary who performed open-heart surgery. I got to
know him when he became head of Surgery at Pecs in 1950 and his adopted
daughter Ildiko Kudasz became my friend and classmate. I often visited with
the Kudaszes. Dr. Kudasz was a lovely man who was also a first-rate
violinist. The second Kudasz I have heard of is Emese Kudasz (born in 1943)
who is an artist. Has several independent shows all over Europe. I know her
name only from the Hungarian Who's Who.

        Eva Balogh

At 12:14 AM 3/11/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:

>I believe Eva Balogh is a liberal.  I'm not.  At least not in the sense that
>she is.  I find contradictory statements troublesome.  Some people seem to
>live with them quite comfortably.

        First, let's see what "liberal," "liberalism" mean.

Webster's Ninth Collegiate Dictionary has this to say about the word "liberal."

(1816): who is a liberal as a: one who is open-minded or not strict in the
observence of orthodox, tradition, or established forms or ways; b: a member
or supporter of a liberal political party; c: advocate of adherent of
liberalism esp. in individual rights.

        When it comes to "liberalism":

(1819): 1: quality or state of being liberal; 2a: a movement in modern
Protestantism emphasizing intellectual liberty and the spiritual and ethical
content of Christianity; 2b: a theory of economics emphasizing individual
freedom from restraint and usu. based on free competition, the
self-regulating market, and the gold standard; 2c: a political philosophy
based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of man, and the autonomy
of the individual and standing for the protection of political and civil
liberties.

        I see no contradiction here whatsoever. That is, if I were a
liberal, pure and simple, my remarks about altruism, decency and compassion
would be in perfect harmony with liberal believes. But Joe, of course,
reacts vehemently to any suggestion that any of these things can exist
outside his own creation: socialism of the future!

        Eva Balogh

It was outstanding -- even if you didn't speak Hungarian.

Tim Roufs
Duluth

On Sun, 10 Mar 1996  wrote:

> Lo all,
>
> I was told that the Rock Theater performed an English language version of
> EVITA by Andre Lloyd Webber in Budapest about 2 summers ago with some
> Enlgish and Emrican Star...does anyone have any info on it and  how it
> went?
>
> Thanks
>

In article >, "Johanne L. Tournier"
> writes:

> You may say that you were not trying to suggest that his grandfather
>was a barbarian, but isn't that in fact what you were implying by jumping
>all over his argument? You may not have meant it that way, but indeed it
>could have been taken that way.

Okay, how likely is it that I'm going to know that this kid had a
grandfather who served in the Austro-Hungarian army during that period
without some kind of close personal association with him over a long
period of time, Johanne? And he did not defer to either Eva's opinion nor
mine. He reiterated his original argument. What you're doing is allowing
maximum interpretive leeway for his statements while trying to hold mine
up to an arbitrary standard composed of your own personal inference. I
doubt this works in a Canadian court, so why should you be allowed to try
it here? I find it striking that you nowhere mention my post where I
showed how the American negotiators at Versailles either abandoned or
corrupted those parts of the 14 Points that dealt with Hungary. I also
stated that it did not show the U.S. in a positive light. I guess that
post wouldn't fit into your analysis, would it? Thank goodness you are
honest enough not to make any pretenses about being impartial.
Sam Stowe

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>Why, thank you, Sam.  But I never would have expected such a public
display
>of penis envy from you.  I guess y'always live and learn, eh?
>
>

You're going to get a nasty e-mail from our newly self-appointed censor,
Martha Bihari. You'd better be a good boy or else. We're not supposed to
poke you with a stick any longer.
Sam Stowe

At 03:58 PM 3/10/96 EDT, Hugh wrote in connection with the emigres'
influence on American policy:

>As I recall, it was Mamatey's conclusion that the immigrants' attempts
>to influence policy were expensive failures, or at best half-successes,
>that at most speeded up America's decisions along lines they would almost
>certainly have taken in any case.

        I haven't read Mamatey for a very long time but that is my
recollection as well. Mihaly Karolyi in his memoirs expresses his belief
that if he had stayed in the West in 1914 and had not returned to Hungary
the country's chances in 1918-1919 would have been a great deal better. I
very much doubt that--especially if it was Mihaly Karolyi who tried to head
Hungarian emigre politics. Even his admirers or semi-admirers admit that he
was a very bad politician! In any case, Hungarian emigration to the United
States was relatively small; or rather, a lot of people emigrated from
within the borders of historic Hungary but most of them were not Magyars but
Slovaks, and, as we know very well, the Slovaks of the United States rather
listened to Masaryk than to some Hungarian politician whose language they
didn't even understand.

        The fact remains that Hungary had a very bad billing, let's say,
from the turn of the century or maybe a little earlier. The West began to
view the monarchy as a "prison" of diverse nationalities whose desire was to
leave this prison as soon as possible. They looked upon the Austrian Germans
and the Hungarians as "master nations," who trampled on the rights of
non-Germans and non-Hungarians. This was especially unfair to the Austrian
half of the monarchy. It is really hard to argue that the Czechs were
deprived of their rights as citizens in Austria. I think--and please Hugh
correct me if I am wrong--that the German-Czech struggle wasn't really for
equality it was rather which nation would have the upper hand in the Czech
land. The Hungarians kept boasting of their democratic roots (Golden Bull,
1848) but the fact was that by 1910 the suffrage was too restrictive. While
in 1867 the electoral law was not terribly out of step with the rest of the
European nations, by 1910 it certainly was. Since voting rights were based
on property qualifications and education most of the non-Magyars didn't have
the vote. Mind you, the poor and uneducated Magyars didn't either. In
addition, there were petty and stupid harrassments of the non-Magyar
intelligentsia and non-Magyar schools. The Hungarians smelled treason
everywhere. At the same time nationalistic propaganda got louder and louder
and although it was not much more than talk it was used to prove that the
Hungarians were intolerant and oppressive.

        And one more thing I found that Hungarian propaganda (and I am not
using the word here in a negative sense) was terribly ineffective to change
this general western perception. This was true before the World War I and
between the two world wars as well. Even today if one compares the
propaganda concerning Czech performance eminating from Prague one can only
marvel the clever way the Czechs can handle their western friends. Compare
that with the perception of Hungary and I don't think that there is much
doubt that the Czechs handle themselves a great deal better.

        Eva Balogh

At 08:38 AM 3/11/96 -0400, Johanne wrote:

>By the way, I saw a book in the Pu:ski-Corvin catalog by a lady named *E'va
>S. Puska's-Balogh* which was titled *Foltos Emle'kek*. Is that you, by any
>chance?

        Oh, no. You should see my pictures--completely untalented. Totally
lacking artistic talent. The only thing I know more or less is history.

        Eva Balogh

Series originally written by Kota Gyorgy.


R E L I G I O N


According to church records, the Hungarian Reformed Church in Sub-Carpathia
consists of 100,000 Hungarians; 60,000 ethnic Hungarians are Roman Catholics
(85% of all Roman Catholics of the Ukraine live in Sub-Carpathia) and 20,000
are Greek Catholics. Ethnic Hungarians account for 100% of all Calvinists in
Sub-Carpathia.

Stalinist repression of religion, imprisonment of priests and confiscation of
church property in the Soviet Union severely restricted the role of Hungarian
denominations in preserving minority language and culture. In 1949, the
Sub-Carpathian College of Theology, the first higher educational institution in
the region, was closed and its faculty imprisoned. Persecution was such that by
1989 Sub-Carpathia's 81 Reformed Churches were served by only 21 pastors and 41
catholic parishes had only 10 priests.

The major problem facing Sub-Carpathia's Hungarian churches nowadays is the
lack of trained priests and ministers. The Greek Cahtolic Church, however
continues to fight to regain its property confiscated by the East Orthodox
Church in the late 1940's. The Sub-Carpathian College of Theology reopened in
the fall of 1991 but lacks enough space to accommodate student demand. Theology
students are, presently, free to study in Hungary.


<<<<END>>>>

At 05:37 PM 3/11/96 +0100, Mr. Odor wrote:

>Now I start to undestand why Mr. Zsoter wrote that "famous" sentence
>about you.

        I am not quite sure which "famous" sentence you are talking about
because he said many, many sentences about me. But please, don't repeat them
here. Some people might be offended by the four-letter words. Plus you might
not do a perfect job on the translation of Mr. Zsoter's colorful language.

>I have read all of your postings in this topic, but you only made
>accusations. You did not argued on the check case. It would be great
>to remain at the facts, as several people suggested.

>I hope, they wants facts from you too, not only from me.

        What facts? That people are against compensation for lost property
as a consequence of the Jewish laws and the holocaust. That they hate the
SZDSZ because they think that it is a "Jewish party." That everywhere I went
someone felt compelled to say something negative about Jews in the media or
in politics. I must have dreamt all that, I guess.

        Eva Balogh

At 08:43 AM 3/11/96 -0500, Sam Stowe wrote:
>In article >, "Johanne L. Tournier"
> writes:
>
>> You may say that you were not trying to suggest that his grandfather
>>was a barbarian, but isn't that in fact what you were implying by jumping
>>all over his argument? You may not have meant it that way, but indeed it
>>could have been taken that way.
>
>Okay, how likely is it that I'm going to know that this kid had a
>grandfather who served in the Austro-Hungarian army during that period
>without some kind of close personal association with him over a long
>period of time, Johanne?

        Well, my grandfather also served in the Austro-Hungarian army for
four solid years as a private, the poor thing, while my grandmother tried
make ends meet with three daughters ages 7, 9, and 12 in 1914. I still have
his picture in uniform with his crewcut and moustache.

        But let me reiterate here that every time I think of the First World
War I get angry at its senselessness, at its stupidity. Serbian
nationalism--as any kind of nationalism--never appealed to me, and, after
all, the immediate cause of that senseless war was Serbia's insatiable
appetite for a Greater Serbia. Let's face it, the idea of a Yugoslavia was
shoved down on their throats during the second half of the war. What they
really wanted was to unite all the Serb-inhabited lands and even those which
were not Serb-inhabited and annex them. Their aims haven't changed much in
the intervening years. Their nationalism was and is fanatical and for me
difficult to understand. Perhaps because of the events of the last four
years, one should feel a little more sympathy toward Austria-Hungary, a
multi-national state, which was at least civilized and in which, after all,
many nationalities managed to live in relative piece for centuries. The
history of the region since the breakup of the monarchy has not been a
sterling example of peace and tranquility.

        I think that any thinking person can only regret an opportunity
missed at the demise of Austria-Hungary. Only if we all, meaning all nations
living in the monarchy, had been wiser.

        Eva Balogh

Charlie,

        What about writing to Jennifer Brown and expressing our concerns.
After all, Jennifer used to be an active member of this group before she
moved to Budapest and became involved with the Hungary Report.

        Eva Balogh

Magyarok,

I have a friend here in Austin, texas, who is a student from Hunagry
studying government at the Univ of texas, through an exchange program
between his school and UT.  He would like to stay another year to finish
a degree, but his current funding is non-renewable.  If anyone knows
about an internship for a foreign/Eastern European student to study
government, please let me know.  This is at the graduate school level,
so undergrad-only funding/internship/scholarship would not apply.

Paul Gelencser

Szervusz,

Get a load of this, folks!!!

>From CET On-Line 3/11/96
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
REGIONAL NEWS
-------------

Slovakia, criticised by the United States last week for its human
rights record, has approved a draft law allowing punishment of
people who organise anti-government rallies or spread false
information abroad.  The law on the "protection of the republic"
defines as subversive "organised public rallies aimed at
subverting the constitutional system ... the defence capability
of the country or destroying its independence".  Individuals
found guilty can be jailed for six months to three years or
fined.  If the crime is committed by "an organised group" the
punishment is up to five years in jail.  The wording is similar
to a 1961 criminal law of the communists, their law punished
"the subversion of the socialist state system... the defence
capability or destroying its independence".  Opposition
politicians, such as, Gyula Bardos, deputy leader of the
Hungarian Christian Democratic Movement, which represents
members of Slovakia's ethnic Hungarian minority, believe the
cabinet approval of the draft is linked to the publication of a
U.S. State Department report on international human rights which
criticised Slovakia.  Opposition politicians were also quick to
mention that Prime Minister Vladimir Meciar defended the draft
at a rally of his ruling Movement for a Democratic Slovakia on
Thursday with the following quote, "We shall not allow the
republic to be subverted. " Czechoslovak communist leader
Klement Gottwald used the same phrase in February 1948 at the
start of a coup which resulted in 41 years of communist rule in
Czechoslovakia.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Hopefully many, if not all of you out there, spent some time to send e-mail
about Pal Cseresznyes
to Washington DC and elsewhere. It seems that we (Hungarians) are getting it
from all sides, now. The clamp of those opposed to ethnic Hungarians is getting
tighter and time is getting shorter. All the while, I've been asking if anyone
can get a hold of the Slovak Constitution or the "Language Law" to compare and
see if it is indeed un-constitutional. Now we have this law on the books, as
you read this. I thought it would be difficult to obtain a copy of the Slovak
Constitution, but I was shocked at how simple it really was.

Saturday evening, I was at my friend's house cruising the web and I typed in
Slovakia as my search topic and voila: Slovak Constitution. In English no less.
It's 30+ pages and has 100+ articles. Anybody with Web access can get this.
There's a page that deals with the Constitutions of every country in the world.
It took me 2 minutes to get to it and a couple minutes to print out!!!!! It was
the first time I ever used the web, too. I've been asking for this document for
a long time, now and no one was able to provide.

I don't have the proper amount of time or the typing skills to put it up on the
list, but if there's someone who likes to type and has plenty of free time,
then I'd be able to send you copies the very next day, via UPS Next Day Air.

I was reading the Slovak Constitution and I noticed  that this particular law
that's on the books is blatantly unconstitutional. We need to do something
about this, now!!! There is nothing democratic about Meciar and his posse or
this law. Certainly, nothing that would get them a spot in the EU anytime soon,
unless we don't do anything about it. It would be tragic if Hungary were to
sign any treaty with Slovakia. Hungary sold out, the first time they signed a
treaty. Hungary and ourselves fell short of getting the "language law" off the
books. Let's not make it 3 for 3, PLEASE!!!!

In many Hungarian communities around the US, March 15th will be remembered.
It's usually the same song and dance ( Petofi, Kossuth, and such). Jeszensky
Geza will be in New Brunswick, NJ on Friday. He'll be doing a routine March
15th speech. Question him. Make yourself heard. This time, if you go to one of
these functions, speak up!!!! We cannot celebrate anything, if our brothers and
sisters who happen to be just as Hungarian, if not more so, as we are (we often
consider them the "other Hungarians") can not do the same. They are a part of
our past, present, and our future. But, they may not have a future, ever if
these "laws" go into affect!!!!! They have no outlet to speak up, but we do!!!!


Do something, other than argue and bicker about nonsense (yes, I've been a part
of it, too) and stand up. There's nothing to be proud of when March 15th rolls
in, remember that!!!


Udv.,
Czifra Janos
john_czifra @ shi.com

Ne hagyd elveszni Erdelyt, Felvidek, Delvidek, es stb.-iek Istenunk!!!!!!!!

Eva -- I agree that Jennifer Brown should be alerted to our concerns,
but I seem to recall witin the last year another "Hungary Report"
article that was totally negative also.  Maybe this is her way to get
some attention.

BTW,  I'm really glad you're back...  Life is more interesting and
balanced with you around :)

How did your project with the 56 institute go?

Regards,

Charlie

You wrote:
>
>Charlie,
>
>        What about writing to Jennifer Brown and expressing our
concerns.
>After all, Jennifer used to be an active member of this group before
she
>moved to Budapest and became involved with the Hungary Report.
>
>        Eva Balogh
>

HI!

I am interested in things of Hungary. Is there any book or literature,
or anything i can get, that is good for knowing hungary?

So okada  international christain university

Try one of these works:

Borsody, Stephen ed. The Hungarians: A Divided Nation . New Haven, CT.:
Yale Center for International and Area Studies; Columbus, OH: distributed
by Slavica: 1988.

Czigany, Lorant.  The Oxford History of Hungarian Literature from the
Earliest Times to the Present.    Oxford  Oxfordshire  : Clarendon Press ;
New York : Oxford University Press, c1984.


Hanak, Peter.  One   Thousand Years : A Concise History of Hungary.
Budapest  : Corvina, c1988.

A History of Hungarian Literature. Written by Istvan  Nemeskurty ... et al.
; edited by Tibor Klaniczay ; text translated by Istvan Farkas ... et al. ;
revised by Bertha Gaster ; poems translated by Laszlo Andras ... et al..
Budapest  : Corvina, c1982.


Hoensch Jorg. A History of Modern Hungary 1867-1986.  London and New York:
Longman, 1989 (1984).

Hungary and Eastern Europe : Research Report. ed. by F. Szakaly... et al.
Budapest : Akademiai Kiado, 1980.


Ignotus, Paul.   Hungary.  New York: Praeger, 1972.

Janos, Andrew C. The Politics of Backwardness in Hungary 1825-1945.
Princeton, Princeton University Press, 1982.

A Journey into History : Essays on Hungarian Literature. New York : P.
Lang, c1990.

 Kann, Robert A.  A History of the Habsburg Empire, 1526-1918.  Berkeley :
University of California Press, 1974.

Lazar, Istvan. Hungary, A Brief History. Translated by  Albert Tezla.
Budapest : Corvina, 1990


Lengyel, Emil. 1,000 Years of Hungary. New York, J. Day Co.1958.


Kosary, Domokos G.  A History of Hungary.  New York : Arno Press, 1971  c194=
1


Macartney, C. A.  Hungary.   London : E. Benn, 1934.

Macartney, C. A.   Hungary;  A Short  History.   Edinburgh : University
Press,  1962 .

One Thousand Years : A Concise History of Hungary.   Budapest  : Corvina, c1=
988.

Paml=E9nyi, Ervin. ed.  A History of Hungary. Budapest: Corvina Press, 1973.

Riedl, Frigyes  A History of Hungarian Literature. London :  s.n. , 1906.


Sinor, Denis.   History of Hungary.  London Allen & Unwin  1959

Sugar, Peter F. et.al.   A History of Hungary. Bloomington: Indiana
University Press, 1990.

 Szabolcsi, Bence.   A Concise History of Hungarian Music. Translated from
the  Hungarian by Sara Karig.  London : Barrie and Rockliff  1964.


Peter I. Hidas

Hungarian Studies
Department Of Russian and Slavic Studies
McGill University
Montreal, Quebec, Canada

Dear Everyone,


Please excuse my ignorance and use of English as this is very new to me.I am
trying to find my family members in Hungary. My Nagymama and Nagypapa came to
New Jersey, U.S.A. in the first few years of 1900, I believe. My Nagymama's
name was Zuzsana Duzs and she was from the village of Szalonna in the
Northeast of Hungary. My Nagypapa's name was Ja'nos Kiss and was said to have
come from a village by the name of Szu"rthe in Ung megye.

If anyone can help me in anyway, please send your information to me at
 COM>   My address will change soon as eWorld is
converting to a Website only system. I will try and post a new address by
April when that happens.

Thank you very much,
Alan Hackett (Kiss-Duzs)

At 12:47 AM 3/11/96 -0500, Martha S. Bihari wrote:

>There is not an iota of contradiction between fiscal responsibility,
>accountable government AND humanitarianism!
>                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>The above are the things Eva advocates.  I can't find anything wrong with >it.

Martha, do you get a different version or edition of this list?  You must.
I have seen Eva Balogh advocate fiscal responsibility and accountable
government.  I have not yet seen her advocate humanitarianism.  Being in
favour of women's and gay rights, and being opposed to anti-semitism,
although admirable, are not signs of humanitarianism.  In my books, someone
who cares more about the economic health of a nation than about the health
of its people is no humanitarian.  And please don't tell me that a nation
has to be economically healthy before it can muster its resources to provide
universal healthcare or other social benefits.  The US has had many periods
of economic health and growth.  However, is it not the only Western
industrialized nation without healthcare for all?

Joe Szalai

Our firm is a computer serviceing networkink and
 trading one.we are contacting nowadays with Packard Bell co. We'd like
to know something more about your plans and intends . it would be soluted
your qestions too.


On Sat, 9 Mar 1996, Joe11611 wrote:

> We are a fast growing, data networking and security product manufacturer
> You can E-Mail me or call.  In the U.S. 800-537-9804, outside the U.S.
> 703-491-9348.
>
> Please ask for Joe Lenyi  Director-Network Products
>

Dear Eva Balogh,

> secret and not-so-secret antisemite has a few "kind" words reserved for this

If I do not express antisemitic opinion, then I am secret antisemite.
Thanks for you! It is a true liberal argument!

Now I start to undestand why Mr. Zsoter wrote that "famous" sentence
about you.

> gentlemen that nobody forces them to take Mr. Soros's "dirty" money but if

Not his money, but he himself is dirty. From the word "gentleman" only
the "man" is true. Naturally, this is only an opinion. And do not forget
that I have the right to express it. At least today.

I have read all of your postings in this topic, but you only made
accusations. You did not argued on the check case. It would be great
to remain at the facts, as several people suggested.

I hope, they wants facts from you too, not only from me. But knowing
these people I am not too optimistic.

Tibor Odor

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
-
 -
>
> Karcsi wrote in connection with Tibor Odor's by now infamous indictment of
> George Soros:
>
> >        Whatever Mr Odor says, the simple fact remains that many Hungarians
> >resent Soros "helping" with the finances of the country straight and simply
> >because he is Jewish. No if`s and but`s. That`s the bottom line.
>
>         I fully agree with Karcsi: no question that the general antipathy
> toward Soros is motivated by a large dosage of antisemitism. And, by the
> way, this Soros-bashing has been a favorite topic of the "Forum." Every
> secret and not-so-secret antisemite has a few "kind" words reserved for this
> "evil" man. My reaction to all this has been to remind the honorable
> gentlemen that nobody forces them to take Mr. Soros's "dirty" money but if
> they do, the least they can do is to be civil. But they have difficulty even
> understanding that simple message.
>
> >I`m almost
> >certain that he must have some kind of a hinden agenda (it has been said tha
t
> >that the worst Jew - in terms of being crafty - is a Hungarian one ;-)
>
> It all depends what you call "hidden agenda." Somehow I feel that George
> Soros, although he has become very, very rich, didn't really get full
> satisfaction from his financial wheelings and dealings. He was more of a
> frustrated scholar, or philosopher. Now that he has no serious financial
> constraints he decided to implement, or at least to further, his political
> philosophy, with which he became enamored as a student. Therefore, I think
> that he is genuine in his desire of and hope for his declared goal of an
> "open society." There is no hidden agenda there. On the other hand, I think
> it is a different matter that he--most likely because of personal
> vanity--enjoys the attention he attracts in high political circles from
> Moscow to Prague. And so what! I would enjoy it too.
>
> Eva Balogh
>