Charles asks Andra1s in a recent post--
>Please try to convince me why I should pay taxes to provide health care,
>welfare benefits,and education to anyone--even a Hungarian--who is in the
>country illegally.  Can the U.S. become the world's free lunch?

OK, here goes--Immigrants to this country are legal or illegal purely as the
result of a determination by the Immigration and Naturalization Service, im-
plementing (very spottily) U.S. law.  On the face of it, why should Charles,
or Andra1s or I become enforcers for the INS, when we aren't enforcers for
other branches of the government?

Second, the implication that the U.S. is the world's "free lunch" because we
have provided services to illegal immigrants is misleading, because it assumes
that illegal immigrants come here primarily to take advantage of those services
*and give nothing in return*.  But in fact most illegal immigrants come here to
work. Presumably their labor contributes something important to the U.S.
 economy--allowing middle-class white women to hold down meaningful jobs,
 e.g.--and
presumably they spend at least part of their wages on U.S. goods and services,
thereby contributing to the economic livelihood of the rest of us.

Third, as anyone who pays close attention to media stories knows by now, the
U.S. economy could not function without immigrant labor, much of it in agri-
culture illegal.

So let's stop the sanctimony--there is and should be a distinction between
citizen and non-citizen (whether legal or illegal), else what is the point of
citizenship?  But the place to enforce that distinction is at the border, not
at the welfare office or the hospital door.  In other words, if Charles or
anybody else is really disturbed by the presence of so many illegals among us,
let them put pressure on our newly-elected representatives to enforce our
immigration laws by deporting illegal aliens.  That, of course, will mean
beefing up the INS, and that of course will cost money, which these newly-
elected representatives have vowed not to spend.

But that is not the fault of illegal aliens, and depriving them, *once in this
country*, of the services deemed essential for civilized life will not make us
noble in our own eyes, nor will it stop the flood of immigrants.  Besides, we
can afford it.

Udv.,
Be1la

> Last summer, someone posted to the list instructions on how to search the
> list archives for old posts using boolean search terms. I seem to have lost
> the disk on which I had saved those instructions. Could someone re-post them?
> thanks,

Heather,
it was Zoli Fekete's post which follows here:

 * * * QUIBBLE NOTICE - READER DISCRETION IS RECOMMENDED ! ! ! * * *
  * The following may have no substance, or interest to the list! *

 Well, to make up for it, those who are still with us can learn this
little trick: to look up something in the LISTSERV database, send a
message to  (note that the server address is
different from the list address!) with the following body (with
the desired Boolean search terms between 'Search ... in'):

//      JOB  Echo=Yes
Database Search DD=Rules outlim=20000
//Rules DD   *
Search (disagree or offend) and (fekete and Eva AND NOT smurf) in HUNGARY
Print all
/*

Regards,
Joe

Hi,
travelling fellow Hungarians (esp. in the USA). I have found the
following information on the rec.travel.air newsgroup, I though
I would post at least the part, that describes where you can find
the rest of this FAQ. Xmas and New Year's Day is coming, good luck
to your search for an inexpensive but still excellent air plane
ticket.
Gotthard


> --------------------------------------------------------------------

;;; ****************************************************************
;;; Airfare FAQ, Part 1 ********************************************
;;; ****************************************************************
;;; Written by Mark Kantrowitz
This post is a summary of useful information for air travelers. The
focus is on obtaining inexpensive air fares, although other topics are
also covered. It was previously posted under the title "FAQ: How to
Get Cheap Airtickets".

The information in this FAQ applies primarily to US domestic flights,
though some information may also apply to international flights.

Please mail comments, corrections, additions, suggestions, criticisms
and other information to .

*** Copyright:

Copyright (c) 1989-94 by Mark Kantrowitz. All rights reserved.

This FAQ may be freely redistributed in its entirety without
modification provided that this copyright notice is not removed.  It
may not be sold for profit or incorporated in commercial documents
(e.g., published for sale on CD-ROM, floppy disks, books, magazines,
or other print form) without the prior written permission of the
copyright holder.  Permission is expressly granted for this document
to be made available for file transfer from installations offering
unrestricted anonymous file transfer on the Internet.

If this FAQ is reproduced in offline media (e.g., CD-ROM, print form,
etc.), a complimentary copy should be sent to Mark Kantrowitz, School
of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University, 5000 Forbes Avenue,
Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3891 USA.

This article is provided AS IS without any express or implied warranty.

*** Topics Covered:

Part 1:
  [1-0]  Obtaining the FAQ
  [1-1a] Standard Tricks: Advance Booking Discounts
  [1-1b] Advance Purchase Fares
  [1-2]  Nested/Overlapping Tickets Strategy
  [1-x]  Stopovers and Circle Trips
  [1-3]  Fare Classes
  [1-4]  Classes of Service
  [1-5]  Fare Types

  [1-6]  Special Fare Categories
  [1-7]  Children's Fares
  [1-8]  Clergy Fares
  [1-9]  Military Fares
  [1-10] Senior Citizen Fares
  [1-11] Student/Youth Fares
  [1-12] Family Fares
  [1-13] Conference Fares
  [1-14] Sympathy Fares, Emergency Fares
  [1-15] Refunds
  [1-16] Flying Standby
  [1-17] Getting Bumped
  [1-18] Special Travel Dates/Fare Sales/Fare Wars
  [1-19] Moving Up the Return Flight
  [1-20] Hidden City Fares
  [1-21] Buying Someone Else's Nonrefundable Ticket
  [1-22] Discount Airlines
  [1-23] Tour Desks

Part 2 (Travel Agents, Connections, Airports, Baggage):

   Travel Agents:
   [2-1]  Travel Agents
   [2-2]  Unusual Travel Agents: Commission Rebaters
   [2-3]  Consolidators
   [2-4]  Couriers
   [2-5]  Travel Agencies that Specialize in Students
   [2-6]  Visit USA
   [2-7]  Free Upgrades to First Class
   [2-8]  Companion Tickets
   [2-9]  Avoiding Travel Scams
   [2-10] Missed Connections
   [2-11] Getting There Faster
   [2-12] Airports Monopolized by One Carrier
   [2-13] Hub Cities

   Baggage:
   [2-14] Lost Baggage
   [2-15] Baggage Limits
   [2-16] Pets
   [2-17] Bicycles
   [2-18] Restrictions on Electronics
   [2-19] X-ray Machines/Metal Detectors
   [2-20] Packing Tips/Checklist

Part 3 (Safety & Comfort, Frequent Flyers):

   Travel Safety, Comfort, and Convenience:
   [3-1]  Travel Advisories/Health Information
   [3-2]  Travel Safety
   [3-3]  Air Quality
   [3-4]  Smoke-Free Flights
   [3-4a] Air Pressure Problems (Colds)
   [3-5]  Special Meals
   [3-6]  Jetlag
   [3-7]  Pregnant Passengers
   [3-8]  Tips for Families Flying with Children
   [3-9]  Tips for Business Travelers
   [3-9b] Best Seats
   [3-10] Exchanging Currency

   Frequent Flyers:
   [3-11] Frequent Flyer Programs
   [3-12] Premier FF Membership
   [3-13] Hotel Frequent Flyer Plans
   [3-14] Credit Card Voucher Offers
   [3-15] Telephone Companies
   [3-16] Discount Coupon Offers

Part 4 (Appendices, Miscellaneous):

   Appendices:
   [4-1]  Airline Reservation Phone Numbers
   [4-2]  Flight Information
   [4-3]  On-line reservation services
   [4-4]  Complaints and Compliments
   [4-5]  Glossary
   [4-6]  Other Sources of Information
   [4-7]  Further Reading
   [4-8]  Phone Numbers Included in this FAQ

   Miscellaneous:
   [4-9]  IRS Rules Change
   [4-10] Airline Antitrust Litigation
   [4-11] Miscellaneous Notes
   [4-12] World-Wide Web (WWW) Resources

> ----------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: [1-0] Obtaining the FAQ

Certain questions and topics come up frequently in the rec.travel.air
newsgroup. This FAQ is intended to gather these questions and their
answers into a convenient and comprehensive reference. The hope is
that this will cut down on the user time and network bandwidth used to
post, read and respond to the same questions over and over, as well as
answering questions some readers may not even have thought to ask.

Posts of a commercial nature, such as the buying and selling of
airplane tickets, should be posted to rec.travel.marketplace and not
this newsgroup.

An updated version of this file is posted once a month on the 13th of
the month to the newsgroups rec.travel.air and news.answers. The
version date for the file is located in the header near the top of the
file.

In between postings, the latest version of this FAQ is available by
anonymous FTP from
   ftp.cs.cmu.edu:/user/mkant/Travel/   [128.2.206.173]
using username "anonymous" and password "" (substitute your
email address) or via AFS in the Andrew File System directory
   /afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/mkant/Public/Travel/
as the files airfare1.faq, airfare2.faq, airfare3.faq, and airfare4.faq.

Other files available from this directory include:
   bucket.faq       Edward Hasbrouck's FAQ on Bucket Shops and Consolidators
   classes.txt      List of fare classes
   discounts.txt    Table of Airline Special Fare Discounts (29-JUL-92)
   em_intrfrnc.txt  Summary of EM Interference by Laurie Bechtler
   ff.faq           Joel Chan's Frequent Flyer FAQ
   flt_attdnt.txt   Description of the Job of a Flight Attendant
   iata.tgz         List of worldwide airport IATA codes by Peter Loibl
                    and Paulo Santos
   jetlag.txt       The ANL jet lag diet.
   online.faq       John Levine's FAQ on Online Computer Reservation Systems
   tourism.faq      Where to get tourist/travel information

The FAQ postings are also archived in the periodic posting archive on
   rtfm.mit.edu:/pub/usenet/news.answers/travel/air/handbook/ [18.181.0.24]
If you do not have anonymous ftp access, you can access the archive by
mail server as well.  Send an E-mail message to 
with "help" and "index" in the body on separate lines for more
information.

A HTML version of the FAQ is available as
http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/travel/air/handbook/top.html

If you need to cite the FAQ for some reason, use the following format:
   Mark Kantrowitz, "Air Traveler's Handbook", rec.travel.air, <month>, <year>,
   ftp.cs.cmu.edu:/user/mkant/Travel/airfare?.faq, .

> ----------------------------------------------------------------

On Sun, 13 Nov 1994 23:56:00 EST W. BATKAY said:
>Charles asks Andra1s in a recent post--
>>Please try to convince me why I should pay taxes to provide health care,
>>welfare benefits,and education to anyone--even a Hungarian--who is in the
>>country illegally.  Can the U.S. become the world's free lunch?
>
>OK, here goes--Immigrants to this country are legal or illegal purely as the
>result of a determination by the Immigration and Naturalization Service, im-
>plementing (very spottily) U.S. law.  On the face of it, why should Charles,
>or Andra1s or I become enforcers for the INS, when we aren't enforcers for
>other branches of the government?
>
--I presume that the way that any of us could be "enforcers" would be if
we were in the position of denying a service to an illegal immigrant.  Also
if we were in a position to hire or not hire an illegal immigrant.  I believe
that employers had the latter role under existing law, isn't that right?  As to
being "enforcers" by denying services, this is not a new role for many of us
who have worked in government.  I have had to deny certain services to people
for a variety of reasons.  For example, I once worked in a state service that
provided some services to veterans of the armed services that were not
provided for non-veterans.  So I don't find this argument convincing.

>Second, the implication that the U.S. is the world's "free lunch" because we
>have provided services to illegal immigrants is misleading, because it assumes
>that illegal immigrants come here primarily to take advantage of those service
s
>*and give nothing in return*.  But in fact most illegal immigrants come here t
o
>work. Presumably their labor contributes something important to the U.S.
> economy--allowing middle-class white women to hold down meaningful jobs,
> e.g.--and
>presumably they spend at least part of their wages on U.S. goods and services,
>thereby contributing to the economic livelihood of the rest of us.
>
--This is a better argument.  But it assumes that most illegal immigrants
work as domestics--a job that many Americans alledgely won't take.  You undo
this point a bit in the next paragraph, but, setting this to one side, the
remedy is to redo the "green card" process to balance the demand with the
supply, rather than to institutionalize the circumvention of the immigration
law.  I would agree that illegals come seeking work and not welfare.  But
by providing support services to illegals, we enable and support illegal
entry.  The same argument has been made about teen-age pregnancy.  Welfare
doesn't cause it, but it enables people to do it successfully.

>Third, as anyone who pays close attention to media stories knows by now, the
>U.S. economy could not function without immigrant labor, much of it in agri-
>culture illegal.
>
--Again, for many years the U.S. has used migrant labor for agricultural
labor.  I lived in an area where this was done successfully for many years.
These people all had green cards and got services.  There were no services
without green cards in those days, until services became available through
a court decision.  That's where the current situation arose.

>So let's stop the sanctimony

--I object to the tenor of this remark.  You can't know my state of mind.
As I said in the earlier posting, few, if any, countries offer the same
services to illegals as to legal aliens.  To do so is to undermine the
whole immigration process.  Some opponents of prop. 187 have tried to
make it seem that the U.S. is the only bad guy in a world of open
borders.  This just isn't the case, and I am not prepared to call everyone
sanctimonious who wants to regulate immigration.

--there is and should be a distinction between
>citizen and non-citizen (whether legal or illegal), else what is the point of
>citizenship?

--Exactly.

  But the place to enforce that distinction is at the border, not
>at the welfare office or the hospital door.  In other words, if Charles or
>anybody else is really disturbed by the presence of so many illegals among us,
>let them put pressure on our newly-elected representatives to enforce our
>immigration laws by deporting illegal aliens.

--The same law that you call "very spotty?"  I agree that we should
handle these problems at the border.  The INS tries very hard to do
that.  But it's a big border, and short of stationing people at
arm's distance, it's hard to do.  The way it is now, we support people
who beat the system.  "You aren't supposed to be here, but since you
got past the border, we will offer you the benefits of citizenship just
as we would if you were legal."  Talk about double messages.

  That, of course, will mean
>beefing up the INS, and that of course will cost money, which these newly-
>elected representatives have vowed not to spend.
>
--We have done that and no doubt will continue to do so.

>But that is not the fault of illegal aliens, and depriving them, *once in this
>country*, of the services deemed essential for civilized life will not make us
>noble in our own eyes, nor will it stop the flood of immigrants.

--Are you saying that if people are successful in getting around a law that
we should accept it as a fait accompli and reward such behavior?  Consider
this example:  I have robbed a bank and gotten away with it.  The bank
publishes a piece in the next week's paper saying, "Charles, you successfully
robbed our bank.  That was wrong.  But since you got away with it, we want
you to know that, wherever you are, we would welcome you as a depositor.
You will have to use an assumed name, of course, but be sure and ask for
the free toaster that we give to each new depositor."

  Besides, we
>can afford it.

--California is up to its armpits in public debt.  The services in
question are funded primarily by state funds.  True, there is federal
matching for health and welfare, but the match depends on state
appropriations.  The educational benefits are primarily state funds.
Californians don't think that they can afford it.  And is there not
a point down the road where this becomes a drain even on New Jersey's
ratepayers?  Most European countries took legal immigrants from
Iron Curtain countries.  Sweden was probably the most generous and
open about receiving immigrants.  Even Sweden has now moved to
restrict legal--let alone illegal--immigration.  The sad truth is
that it is not up to Sweden--or the U.S.--to even out the odds in
order to make up for the faulty policies of some other government.

This will cause many individual hardships.  No doubt the media will
flood us with heartrending stories about this illegal or that one.
And they will be genuine hardship cases.  But resources are limited,
and there is a real moral question involved in answering the degree
to which *government* can force us to reduce our own welfare for the
welfare of others.  Ultimately, NAFTA may provide enough economic
growth the slow immigration.  Until then, I have to conclude that
we bear limited *governmental* responsibility for Mexicans, Canadians,
even Hungarians, who enter the country illegally.  There's nothing
to stop sympathetic Americans from contributing to a fund to provide
heath care, education, and cash grants to foreign countries in order
to improve the quality of life there so that people are not encouraged
to become illegal aliens.  In fact, this is done and I suggest that
those who wish to contribute to these efforts should do so.  I am,
however, reluctant to suggest that Uncle Sugar should force such
contributions.

Charles

Joe Pannon writes:

> What is also remarkable about this election, that to my knowledge no
> incumbant Republican was unseated, not even moderate ones.

This is certainly true for all US Senate and House races, and I think
it's also true for gubernatorial races as well.


> Haven't wee passed a legislation a few years ago that provided
> legalization of some class of former illegals while at the same time
> increasing sanctions against future illegal immigration (by requiring
> employers to check immigration status, etc.)?

In 1986, I believe.



--Greg

Be1la Batkay writes:

> OK, here goes--Immigrants to this country are legal or illegal purely as the
> result of a determination by the Immigration and Naturalization Service, im-
> plementing (very spottily) U.S. law.

This is a curious definition of legality; and AFAIK INS decisions
can be appealed through the courts.  I welcome correction.


> On the face of it, why should Charles,
> or Andra1s or I become enforcers for the INS, when we aren't enforcers for
> other branches of the government?

Perhaps you could elaborate on what you mean by "you" becoming an enforcer?
All employers currently, by Federal law, are supposed to verify the
legitimacy of prospective employees.  Perhaps you mean the verification
procedures in 187?  How are Charles, Andra1s or you going to become
enforcers?


> Second, the implication that the U.S. is the world's "free lunch" because we
> have provided services to illegal immigrants is misleading, because it assume
s
> that illegal immigrants come here primarily to take advantage of those
 services
> *and give nothing in return*.  But in fact most illegal immigrants come here
 to
> work. Presumably their labor contributes something important to the U.S.
>  economy--allowing middle-class white women to hold down meaningful jobs,
>  e.g.--and
> presumably they spend at least part of their wages on U.S. goods and services
,
> thereby contributing to the economic livelihood of the rest of us.

And presumably it's not unreasonable that the people insist on legal
immigration, and that federal immigration law be followed, or changed.

> Third, as anyone who pays close attention to media stories knows by now, the
> U.S. economy could not function without immigrant labor, much of it in agri-
> culture illegal.

I agree, let's legalize it.  We used to have a bracero program, let's
think about bringing it back.

>
> So let's stop the sanctimony--there is and should be a distinction between
> citizen and non-citizen (whether legal or illegal), else what is the point of
> citizenship?  But the place to enforce that distinction is at the border, not
> at the welfare office or the hospital door.

As I mentioned, every employer is already required to enforce this distinction.


> In other words, if Charles or
> anybody else is really disturbed by the presence of so many illegals among us
,
> let them put pressure on our newly-elected representatives to enforce our
> immigration laws by deporting illegal aliens.

Passing 187 will probably put a lot of pressure on our newly-elected
representatives, as it was no doubt designed to do.


> That, of course, will mean
> beefing up the INS, and that of course will cost money, which these newly-
> elected representatives have vowed not to spend.
>
> But that is not the fault of illegal aliens, and depriving them, *once in thi
s
> country*, of the services deemed essential for civilized life will not make u
s
> noble in our own eyes, nor will it stop the flood of immigrants.  Besides, we
> can afford it.

This is a little high blown, isn't it?  Asking that immigration law be
either followed or changed isn't exactly ignoble, IMHO.

We can afford beefing up the INS, too, if the question is reduced to ability
to pay.


--Greg

Greg writes:
> CBS projects Pataki as winning.

> --Greg
> as of Tue Nov  8 20:32:32 PST 1994

This time CBS was correct. I presume that all who explained that the voters
were doing the right stuff in relation to the Hungarian elections are as
elated with the US results as they were with the Hungarian ones.

Regards,Jeliko.

encyclopaedia britannica (1962) volume 20, p341.

"the serbs (srbi, as they call themselves) are a slavonic nation,
ethnically and by language the same as the croats (hrvati, horvati,
croati). the croats, however, are roman catholics and use the latin
alphabet, while the serbs belong to the orthodox church and use the
cyrillic alphabet, augmented by special signs for the special
sounds of the serb language.
.............
practically from the 8th to the 12th century the bulk of the serbs
was under either bilgarian or greek suzerainty, while the serbo-croat
provinces of dalmatia acknowledged either venetian or hungarian supemacy."

d.a.

Andy Veluswami ) wrote:
: Hi all,

: I am a student in Engineering planning to visit Hungary,
: and would like to get in touch with Professors at the
: Technical University of Budapest. I was wondering if anyone
: could give me an e-mail address with which I could
: contact Faculty members there.

: Thank you in advance,

: Andy Veluswami

I am sure that the University is on the World Wide Web.   Take it to that
site and at the end of the doc's there are usually E-mail sigs.  Those
would be the best people to ask.

The Belgian American Association ,
the Cultural Services of the Embassy of the Republic of Hungary
and the Hungarian American Cultural Association presents -

a recital by the The Melody Heirs
(members of The Choral Arts Society of Washington)

Monday, November 21st, 1994 at 7pm

The Embassy of the Republic of Hungary
2950 Spring of Freedom Street, NW
Washington, DC

tickets at $12/each

details :(202)-362-6730

A Magyar Koztarsasag Nagykovetsege es a Hungarian-American Cultural
Association szervezeseben :

Van-e meg mit felfedezni Budapesten ?
Buza Peter varostortenesz magyar nyelvu eloadasa

1994 november 14-en, hetfon, este 7 orakor a nagykovetsegen

Magyar Koztarsasag Nagykovetsege
2950 Spring of Freedom Street, NW
Washington, DC

Ingyenes mindenki szamara.

RSVP : (202)-362-6730

November 12th, Saturday
Benefit dinner for the village of Szentgerlice, Erdely (Transsylvania),
at Fairfax Unitarian Church, Virginia .
Reservations are necessary.

Please, call Emery at (703)-323-8293 for information.

November 19th,Saturday , from 7:30pm till 10:30pm

Dance house - Hungarian folk dances

Where : Starting Point Dance Studio
>From interstate 495 (Beltway) take Route 1 (Baltimore Ave) south
toward College Park.  Go approximately 10 lights, turn left onto Calvert
Road.  The studio is in the first building on the right, behind Clean &
Lean Laundromat/fitness center.

In article >,  writes:
> I do tend to agree that although on a personal level there are many great
> and good Hungarian people, as a group--they are one of the most racist,
> sexist, anti-semitic, nationalistic groups period.
The word is "nationalist", aside from "sexist" the others follow.  As for
"sexist", who are Hungars to not agree with most of the world, that male
and female operate in separat social domains?

> Unfortunately, I think
> there are a lot of -isms going on in that part of the world and hence
> some of the reasons for WWI and WWII and even the current situation in
> the former Yugoslavia for example.

Yes, there are, but WWI and WWII were cookd up in western Europe, especiallie
between England and Germanie.  England has not gotten her full share of the
blame for WWI.  France had much to doo with the aftermath, with her enormous
longing for vengeans, that led to German feeling of betrayal, so ablie
exploited by Hitler.  In WWI, Hungarie was not an idependent actor.  As for
WWII, Hungarie decided on irredentizm.  On the other hand, I doubt that
Hungarie would freelie ally with England or France.  I also doubt that
neutralitie would hav meant anithing but conquest.

blind freddy'd tell you that skips and seppos
don't savvy the same lingo. any bloke or sheila
who reckons otherwise is either having you on
or had too many ten ounce sandwiches for brekkie.
but if you cop that tosh, i'll have a burl at
flogging you the coat-hanger.

d.a.

Laborfalvi B. T. writes:
> I must second Sandor's opinion, adding that the Mohawks and the Cree also
> have the right to separate from Quebec.  On the other hand, perhaps we
will
> some day learn how to live in pluralistic multicultural world  and learn
> that  we are here to benefit the rest of the Earth and the biosphere and
> not the other way around.

At times, the building of something better requires the partial dismantling
of structures. If Quebec in facts want to separate, it should have that
right, if the Mohawks or Crees want to separate it is their right also. The
inciting of the Mohawks and Crees to separate by those who are upset about
the separation of Quebec to get a "revanche" is sour grapes and meddling.
While the specifics are given for Canada, this type of thinking is
prevalent in the Balkan area also.
BTW., scouts honor, I will not suck blood anymore from mosquitos.

Regards,Jeliko.

S. Sz. Gotthard writes:
> The Belgian American Association ,
> the Cultural Services of the Embassy of the Republic of Hungary
> and the Hungarian American Cultural Association presents -

Vow, they found somebody with whom there are no conflicts. Will the recital
be in Flemish or Walloon?

Regards,Jeliko.

Please, help me if you can.

I need iformation on how to find e-mail address in Hungary.
In fact, I need address of University of Szombathely, but I will appreciate
any data on Universities/colleges e-mails in Hungary.
I feel I will be able to manage to find it somehow.

Thanks in advance

Contact me at       directly

A.Kozlov

>Anyone aware of information about the Germans immigration to the Banat area of

(formerly) Austria-Hungary? Or even about the villages of Dolatz and Bakovar?

Thanks

Bob Madler

 wrote:
: Dear Steve Paredes:

: I am afraid there is something wrong with your sense of humor!
evryone sez that too me :)

: My irony was certainly wasted on you.
post it to alt.bitterness or alt.angst :(

: Or perhaps you have not been on the list long enough
: to appreciate my lines.
very right! ive never read such lines anywhere before... thay caught my
attention about dialectics and ferrous-ogony in lingustics, but apparently i
must learn about the subtlties in this group... (bocs!) :)

: Imi Bokor and I don't understand each other not
: because we speak different languages or highly divergent dialects of
: the same language. The problem lies elsewhere.
BINGO! You are very rite here! My comments bout hu language were apparently
not directed to you but rather Imi... i reread and rethought my impetuous
post and found that i was wrong about its intended recipient :(

: By the way, Imi Bokor's ridiculous comment on the state of the English
: language doesn't deserve serious consideration or comment.
rite again! had i been more attentive, i should have posted my reply at
alt.binaries.picture.silly.magyar as a Chomsky-like generative lingustic
pattern in 3-D on how English dialects really work... but i'll leave that
to less serious Lambean stratispherists who know so much more than i (doo)...

: Eva Balogh

tap at ya later bout sum hu dialectics like mosolyogni, mosolyoga'lni,
e's mosolyogocska'zni (duz that work? -really, i dunno... but there ARE 3)
:) :)) :)))  (really, any explain on this is appreciated!)

stephen

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In article >, Charles
> writes:
> --Didn't Hawaii ask for statehood?

Yes, the state that existed after Liliuokalane abdicated to the
Yankee sugar-planters

Joe Pannon was asking about Hungary's NATO membership,

>What about Hungary's NATO membership?  Could that also be speeded up by
>the new Congress?

That is a possibility, in my opinion. Also, I would like to add that since I
complained about the new Hungarian government's ambivalence concerning NATO,
things have improved in Budapest. It seems that cooler heads prevailed and
today Hungary seems to be pushing forward toward full NATO membership.

Eva Balogh

Charles wrote:

> Until then, I have to conclude that
> we bear limited *governmental* responsibility for Mexicans, Canadians,
> even Hungarians, who enter the country illegally.  There's nothing
> to stop sympathetic Americans from contributing to a fund to provide
> heath care, education, and cash grants to foreign countries in order
> to improve the quality of life there so that people are not encouraged
> to become illegal aliens.  In fact, this is done and I suggest that
> those who wish to contribute to these efforts should do so.  I am,
> however, reluctant to suggest that Uncle Sugar should force such
> contributions.

Right on, Charles!
BTW, let's not forget that a lot of illegals get across the border
LEGALLY with visitor visas and then they just stay on.  No amount of
border patrolling could stop them at the border.

Joe

Charles Atherton writes:
> --This has little to do with Hungary, gentleman, and as one who has been
> flamed for discussing non-Hungarian topics, I can't resist saying so.
> Mentioning Pataki doesn't make the content Hungarian.
True enough. I was just responding to Joe's remarks, and let's be honest
about it: this is a terrific occasion for Joe to gloat and I wouldn't
spoil his fun for a million dollars (well, for a million dollars, maybe
I would:-). When Hungary had elections, I didn't particularly like the
outcome but at least I could claim that I saw it coming, that the writing
was on the wall, so while I failed to get a government that would push
through the agenda I think needs to be pushed at least I succeeded as
a prognostician. This time I failed in both senses, and many republicans
will go on claiming that the writing was on the wall. Perhaps it was, and
I more or less subconsciously tuned it out. Anyway, it is not a happy
experience (methinks anybody who can see Newt Gingrich as part of a
happy experience needs their head examined) and since Joe asked I felt
obliged to let him now that every dog has its day...

> Think about Proposition 187 a minute.  Very few countries--actually,
> I can't think of any off hand, permit aliens to enjoy the same benefits
> as citizens and legal aliens.  One cannot go to England and get free
> medical care in the NHS unless his or her home country has a reciprocal
> agreement with the UK.  Should one want to live in England as a resident
> alien, he or she must guarantee that it is unlikely that he or she will
> become a public charge.  Please try to convince me why I should pay taxes
> to provide health care, welfare benefits, and education to anyone--even
> a Hungarian--who is in the country illegally.  Can the U.S. become the
> world's free lunch?
Non-HUNGARY subject -- I'll respond off line.

Andra1s Kornai

Andra1s, what is your objection to Prop 187?  Do you recognize any level of
blood-suckingas intolerable?  The problem is not a few hundread or a few
thousand illegals, and this only applied to those here by virtue of having
committing a crime, but rather hundreds of thousands of illegals taking
American jobs, commiting crimes, and taking social benefits.  And yes they
are taking jobs (I took the liberty of anticipating one of your answers),
since there are many Americans, including blacks and whites, who work are
working as farmhands, which demonstrates that Americans will take those
jobs, even at $2-3/hour.  For a reasonable wage, more Americans would
take those jobs ($5-6/hour isn't too much to ask, is it?)  The only reason
the corporate farm owners in California can find illegals to take those
jobs is because is because the relative level of misery in Mexico and points
south is greater than in the US.  Once the standard of living for poor people
in the US falls near that in Mexico, more Americans will be willing to take
slave wage jobs at $2-3/hour.  Is that a good thing, to help Mexican poor
on the backs of Americans poor?

I understand the concern and compassion which motivates you to want to
help the illegals, which is only a civilized reaction, but you are missing
the side of the equation which represents the costs of helping them
by letting them in illegally.  We should promote investment in the poor
countries south of us, but it is econimic suicide to take in anyone who
wanrs to come - legal or not.  For example, in California the have a
terrible problem of a shortage of water, which is a cronic problem.
The water for the southern part of the state comes from the north,
thru aqueducts, and there is not enough rainfall in California overall
to sustain the population they have.  In Texas, and the entir middle part
of the US, they are near a catastrophy due to the water table falling.
The source of water for the central 1/3 of the US is an underground lake
called the Ogalala (spelling?) Aquafer.  In the last 50 years it has dried
up by about 1/3 to 1/2.  The only way they have maintained water output is by
digging deeper, but the water is not being replaced by nature as fast as it
is being used up.  This not a matter of developing the technology to find
or 'create' water - there is a maximum nuber of people the land can support
and we are now, already, beyond that point.

There is more to the issue of illegals than selfish people not wanting
to share the wealth, although the the social and cultural issues
resulting from these recent arrivals also have not been properly addressed.
For example, what about those who do not come, but are just as poor as those
who do?  Are they not diserving of help?  Would you ignore them simply
since they have not placed themselves on you doorstep?  The answer is
environmentally and socially responsible development in the poor countries,
and not the milking dry of the US.


Paul

Well, my hunch, after all, was right that bringing up the US election
results could wake up this list again. ;-)

Jeliko, as so often, took the words right out of my mouth again:

> I presume that all who explained that the voters
> were doing the right stuff in relation to the Hungarian elections are as
> elated with the US results as they were with the Hungarian ones.

Well, just how is this, guys?

Joe

The (dragon) Slayer is guessing right:

> I am sure that the University is on the World Wide Web.   Take it to that
> site and at the end of the doc's there are usually E-mail sigs.  Those
> would be the best people to ask.

The home page is: http://www.fsz.bme.hu/hungary

But seriously, I doubt many profs would rush to oblige any foreign
student who wants to talk to them without knowing what it is about.
They must be too busy for that kind of generosity.

Joe

I have been a couple of weeks behind my reading of the two Hungarian weeklies
I subscribe to. I just started reading the October 29 issue of HVG. Here is
an interesting piece on the Op-Ed page (Ve1leme1nyek). Charles Fenyvesi,
editor of the U.S. New and World Report, talks about the long delay in the
acceptance of the new Hungarian ambassador to Washington, Gyo2rgy Ba1nlaki.
According to Fenyvesi, Washington was not happy with Budapest's decision to
name Ba1nlaki as Hungary's new ambassador. It took the State Department an
unusually long time give its "agre1ment," an act which usually is given
within a week after nomination.

First, the Hungarians were slow to send the letter of nomination. Although
the parliamentary committee approved Ba1nlaki's nomination in June or July,
the letter didn't arrive in Washington until the second half of September.
Already at the beginning of August one could hear rumors in Washington that
not all is well with the gentleman who had been the head of the Hungarian
People's Republic's consulate in New York at the end of the 80s. Insiders
ventured to suggest that perhaps the Hungarian government is reconsidering
the nomination, hence the delay. During the summer, Fenyvesi, the author of
the article, had the distinct impression that Washington is expecting the
quiet withdrawal of the nomination. Ba1nlaki's superiors didn't read the
American signal this way, or they didn't want to recognize the signal.

Eventually the Americans gave the "agre1ment" in mid-October. The message,
according to Fenyvesi, is clear: Washington would like to meet new people put
forth, as the MSZP promised before the elections, and it is not happy with
the old faces which here have no nostalgic appeal..

Eva Balogh

Concerning Bob Madler's request for information about Dolatz
           and Bakovar, according to the  Magyar helysegnev-azonosito szot
           ar, Vako'var was in Temes County, Buzia'sfu"rdo"i District (ja'
           ra's), in 1913 had 2,037 German inhabitants; in German called B
           ochovar; now Bacova, Romania.  Dolatz/Dolacz/Dola'cz, also call
           ed Do'c, was in Toronta'l County, Ba'nlaki District; in 1913 ha
           d 1183 German and Hungarian inhbitants; now Dolat, Romania.
            Ken Nyirady )