****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
   normal

Background:
  Hungary's position in the Danube lawsuit at the International Court
of Justice in The Hague is very promising. However, even if the court
rules in favour for the environment it is possible that the Slovak
government does not accept the verdict.
  It is important that influential politicians of USA support our
position, since in this case Slovakia probably does not dare to reject
the decision of the court.

What to do:
  Please ask vice president Al Gore to make a statement in favour for
the environment of Szigetkoz. Feel free to use the attached NEW form
letter. Al Gore  will only take notice if he receives thousands of
letters.
      SEND SEVERAL LETTERS A DAY!!! PLEASE DO NOT ONLY SEND
      THEM BY E-MAIL!  Send them even by fax or "priority
      mail".  Below are the fax number, and the priority mail
      addresses you should use.
      In all cases, put the names of both the Vice President
      and one or another of his key aides on the top of the
      fax, or on the envelope address.
key aides:
Executive Assistant to the Vice President: Heather Marabeti
Deputy Chief of Staff:                        David Strauss
Director of Political Affairs:              Karen Elizabeth Skelton

address of key aides as well as of Al Gore:
Room 276, Old Executive Office Building
Washington, DC  20501
fax number: 202-456-7044

e-mail address of Al Gore:


*************************************************************

<date>

The Honorable Al Gore
Vice President of the United States
The White House
Washington, D.C. 20001
(e-mail: )


RE:  First Environmental Lawsuit (Danube) in The Hague


Dear Mr. Vice President,

On the 21st of August, 1993, you wrote to professor Bela Liptak about
your concern for the Danube ecosystem. Today, humankind is approaching
an important precedent: By the end of 1997 the International Court of
Justice will rule on the first international environmental lawsuit in
The Hague.

By this fall the ICJ will decide on this case involving the Danube and
the destruction of its ancient wetland region: the Szigetkoz. This
name, loosely translated, means: "The region of a thousand islands,"
yet today there are no islands left there because the water is gone.
Still, the implications of this case go beyond the future of just one
river or just the 400 endangered species of the only inland-sea delta
of Europe.

This lawsuit will set a precedent for the whole planet and will
answer a much more basic question:  Do national governments have the
right to destroy  the natural treasures of this planet, or does
humankind as a whole have the right to protect them?

Mr. Vice President, in 1995 nine international NGOs have submitted a
memorial to ICJ, which the Court accepted. A Compromise Plan was also
submitted to the Court, which would guarantee the restoration of the
ancient Szigetkoz wetlands, together with fulfilling the water-supply,
shipping, and energy needs of the region. For details of this plan,
information is available at the Web site:
http://www.goodpoint.com/duna.htm or from prof. Liptak.

Dear Mr. Gore. There is little question that in October the ICJ
will order Slovakia to return the Danube into its natural riverbed and
will also order the restoration of the Szigetkoz wetlands. But the ICJ
has no powers to enforce its rulings. It will, therefore, be up to the
international community to force the parties to obey the ruling. Since
this is the first international environmental lawsuit before the ICJ,
the outcome will establish an important precedent. All governments
must understand that there is a price to be paid for being admitted
into the European Community or into NATO. That price must include
respect for international law. A statement by you would guarantee that
the parties understand this. Please make that statement.

Respectfully yours,

<Your name, title and address>

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:     normal

Background:
  Hungary's position in the Danube lawsuit at the International Court
of Justice in The Hague is very promising. However, even if the court
rules in favour for the environment it is possible that the Slovak
government does not accept the sentence.
  It is important that influential politicians of USA support our
position, since in this case Slovakia probably does not dare to reject
the decision of the court.

What to do:
  Please help to persuade Secretary of State Madeleine Albright to
make a statement in favor of the Danube. Feel free to use the attached
form letters (letter #1 for Americans, letter #2 for non-Americans).
   IT IS IMPORTANT THAT ALBRIGHT FINDS THOUSANDS OF LETTERS IN HER
MAILBOX.
  PLEASE ACT!! Please SEND EVEN SNAIL MAILS. These are more effective.
FURTHERMORE SEND COPIES OF YOUR LETTER TO:
    Executive Assistant, Maura Harty
    Special Assistant, Carlene Ackerman
    Senior Advisor, Robert O. Boorstin (Room 7246)
    Assistant Secretary for Oceans, & International Environmental and
Scientific Affairs Bureau, Eileen B. Claussen (Room 7831)

address:
United States Secretary of State
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street, NW
Washington, DC  20520

e-mail address of Madeleine Albright:


*************************************************************

<date>

The Honorable Madeleine Albright
United States Secretary of State
United States Department of State
Washington, DC 20520
( E-Mail:  )

RE: First Environmental Lawsuit (Danube) in The Hague

Dear Madame Secretary,

Please accept my congratulations on your well-deserved appointment. I
do hope that your leadership will contribute to progress and stability
in Central Europe.

Madame Secretary, you now have a great opportunity to set a new tone
for American policy in connection with international environmental
standards in general and with the Danube lawsuit in particular, which
is in progress at the International Court of Justice in the Hague.
This new tone would be consistent with the US policy of expanding
Western structures to Eastern and Central Europe. It would also engage
the US more actively in helping resolve emerging inter-country
conflicts in the Region (i) by urging your West European partners to
assist more pro-actively, and (ii) by calling on both parties (Hungary
and Slovakia) to accept the Compromise Plan prepared by the
environmental NGOs and thereby cooperate in the quest for a solution
that can set an example for the future.

Your help in resolving the Danube problem would also be consistent
with the present US policy based on a global approach to environmental
issues and based on seeking to mobilize all relevant political
(multilateral, international, non-governmental, and civic society)
forces to assist in avoiding environmental catastrophes caused by
bilateral agreements that have been drawn up by non-representative
governments under a regional policy framework which was imposed by
Moscow.

This, the first international environmental lawsuit in human
history, also involves the United States, because it was the Paris
Peace Treaty which set the border between Czechoslovakia and Hungary,
and it was that Treaty which named the Great Powers as the guarantors
of the integrity of the two nations' territories. The Treaty also
stated that the two nations DO NOT have the right to change their
border, unless the Great Powers first approve of the change. Yet in
1977, under Soviet direction, the two nations signed a contract to
move the Danube, previously their border river, into an artificial
canal on Slovak territory. By so doing, they did not ask  nor did they
receive, the approval of the Great Powers. Therefore, the Moscow
initiated 1977 Contract was and is INHERENTLY INVALID, and the Danube
must be returned into its riverbed.

Madame Secretary. There is little question, that in the fall, the
International Court of Justice will order Slovakia to return the
Danube into its natural riverbed and will also order the restoration
of the Szigetkoz wetlands. But, as you know, the ICJ has no powers to
enforce its rulings. Therefore, it will be up to the international
community to force Slovakia to obey the ruling. Since this is the
first international environmental lawsuit before the ICJ, the outcome
will establish an important precedent. It must be understood that
there is a price to be paid for being admitted into the European
Community or into NATO. That price must include respect for
international law. A statement by you, would guarantee that the
parties understand this. Please make that statement.

Respectfully yours,

<Your name, address, title>

Sam Stowe wrote:

>I think the missionaries and the people they attempt to minister to would
both be >better off if the mission work consisted of building homes,
feeding the  poor, etc. >rather than trying to pester them into reading
the Book of Mormon.

You know, Sam, I agree with you.  I don't think the two are exclusive, but
I agree with you nonetheless.  And it does depend on the mission, too.  My
parents-in-law are in Papua New Guinea right now doing exactly what you
suggest, at the behest of the LDS Church.  Similar missionaries are in
Hungary doing the same thing.

Kristof

Fencsik Gabor wrote:

>I understand (and, please, Kristof correct me if I am wrong) that Mormons
collect >lists of dead people of all religions and they "convert" them. I
find this practice (if
>true) un-appealing.

You have your facts substantially correct, with one caveat.  We cannot
"convert" these people, as there is no way we have discovered for the
living to proselyte among the dead.  We do, however, offer them the same
opportunity as the living have to participate in saving ordinances by
proxy.  No one believes everyone will accept the ceremony, but we feel it
is our duty to offer them the chance.  I believe that is what you meant;
forgive me, I felt I should clarify.

Kristof

Istvan Lippai wrote:

>I just heard on the radio that Mormons, because of their lifestyle, live,
>on an average, 8-11 years longer than the rest of us.

And have 8% the national average of cirrhosis of the liver, and 7% the
national suicide rate.  Obviously this religion would be a disaster for
Hungary.

Kristof

>Do you really think that, at first blush, the Mormon line that Jesus
>nipped off after the resurrection and re-appeared in the Americas and
that
>an angel told Joseph Smith where to find golden tablets with the whole
>story written on them wouldn't sound, uh, slightly unlikely to the
average
>Hungarian who hasn't heard it before?

Having actually conversed with such people, I'll field this one.  Yes, it
sounds nuts.  To everyone.  Lourdes sounds nuts.  The Virgin Mary
appearing in the grass in Poland sounds nuts.  Heck, evolution sounds like
the craziest thing anyone ever heard of.  Truth is nuts, lots of the time.
 Fiction is much more plausible.

What really got the Hungarians, though, was that Joseph Smith went to jail
for refusing to deny his story, and while he was there, he was shot by a
mob of soldiers.  More Hungarians sympathized with that part of the story
than with any other.  I can't blame them, given their history.  "People
who tell the truth get shot," one of them said.  To her, it was fact,
simple as that.

>I imagine, however, that a Hungarian who hadn't traveled outside his or
>her own country would have a stronger, much more negative reaction than I
>do when Latter-Day Saints missionaries show up on my doorstep.

The reaction is about what Sam says, with the one addition that most
Hungarians can't believe any American would even try to learn Hungarian.
That was quite embarassing, even after I became fairly good with the
language.

>You'll also need to get on your high horse with Mark Twain for calling
the Book of >Mormon "chloroform in print."

Critics we can stand, as long as they are inventive.  Mark Twain wouldn't
have stooped to "bloody wanker," cantankerous as he was.  I love Twain,
though I'll bet he's a bit chagrined just now ;-)

Kristof

>"bloody wanker" is part of the Australian vernacular, used by all ages,
>in the context of my post it is synonymous with narcissist.

Then I do object.  Narcissists worship themselves.  I do not worship
myself.

I worship Sam.

Doesn't everyone?

Kristof

At 08:37 AM 5/6/97 +0100, Eva Durant wrote:

>So freedom of religion means no avoidance of preying in
>the alleged democracies.  I didn't even try to use
>my "right" to get the kids out of this, as it would have
>involved discrimination/isolation. I trusted, that
>they would develop their own critical thinking
>outside school. And they did.  They always had option
>to question and investigate - very rarely in school -
>so there are no regrets and guilty feelings.

I agree with you, Eva.  Unfortunately, when we came to Canada, my
non-religius parents sent all four of us into the Catholic school system.
Why?  They believed that it wouldn't do us any harm.  Besides, my mother
was a lapsed Catholic.

For me, a Catholic education was not as benign as it sounds.  I still
remember a lot of stupid things we had to do.  For example, one day, a
teacher lost her keys.  The school principal went on the intercom system
and asked the whole school to get on our knees and pray that she would find
her keys.  I also remember many days when, in the junior grades, we had to
sit on only half our seat.  And why were we being deformed this way?  We
had to leave space for our "Guardian Angel"!!!

As far as I'm concerned, education and religious instruction are
incompatible.  They are not the same thing.

Joe Szalai

At 04:06 PM 5/5/97 -0400, Jeliko wrote:

<snip>
>Memories can be misleading. There is a fairly extensive review of >the air
war over Hungary.

Truth is the first casualty of war.

Jeliko likes primary sources when he's doing historical research, and
because of that, I'd love to know who's statistics he used for his post.
The winners side?  I'd also like to know if he believes his sources.  And
why?

Because Jeliko doesn't read my posts, I'll never know the answers to my
questions.  Mais, c'est la vie.

Joe Szalai

On Tue, 6 May 1997, Kristof wrote:

> And have 8% the national average of cirrhosis of the liver, and 7% the
> national suicide rate.  Obviously this religion would be a disaster for
> Hungary.

Yes it would be.  Real living, the kind that Hungarians are familiar with,
has a cost.  The upside is that Hungarians get to be with God sooner than
Mormons.  So ..... what's holding you back?

Joe Szalai

Dear Listmembers,

Today in the St. Elizabeth of Hungary Church in Toronto about 700 people
paid their respect to the memory of the recently deceased Andy Sarlos. It
was a beautiful and moving ceremony. I am glad that the family has selected
our church for this service. Probably this was the first time for the many
distinguished guests from financial a political life of Canada when they
visited our beautiful Hungarian Church. Even the weather has cooperated and
helped to show off the church in the best possible light. It was a nice
sunny day making the stainless glass windows with the pictures of our
Hungarian Saints glow especially brightly. Outside the church the grass was
fresh and green, providing a nice backdrop of the many Mercedes, BMWs,
Porches and Ferraries as TV cameras recorded the coming and goings of the
attending celebrities.

I have been an admirer of Andy Sarlos for a long time, based on what I
could read about him in the papers and what he revealed about himself in
his autobiographical book "Fireworks". I knew about the cultural events he
sponsored to create opportunities for Hungarian artist to show their works
in this country, the investments he made in Hungary to create jobs. Today
I also learned from the eulogies of two of his friends that he was an
exceptionally generous man.  For example, he was offered a heart
transplant, which would have extended his life, but declined in favour of
a younger candidate. The first eulogy was given by one of his childhood
friend, Fred Fawn. Peter Munk, his Canadian friend and business partner,
gave second more detailed eulogy.

One of Sarlos's remarkable achievement, that he earned the respect of
Hungarians and Canadians of every colour of the political spectrum. From
the socialists, liberal capitalists to the nationalists. The former
socialist Premier of Ontario was sitting in the pews with the barons of
Bay Street. Arpad Goncz, the President of Hungary, sent a very warm
telegram with his condolences. The Hungarian and Canadian papers all
carried many articles with tributes of his accomplishments. From an
article in the business section of the Globe and Mail (April, 30. 1997)
here are two quotes I particularly liked:

`He fled Hungary when Soviet troops occupied the country in 1956, arriving
in Saint John, N.B., with empty pocket and no coat.' [It sounds he started
worst then me, I had $5, and plenty of second hand cloth.]

`Mr Sarlos was in Budapest last year with Ms Porter [nee Anna Szigeti, now
successful author and publisher, and an other 56-er], "it was a wonderful
trip" she said. "He loved the food and all that schmaltzy Hungarian stuff
like gypsy music"

A truly remarkable man, his passing is a great loss not only to his family
and friend but to all of us.

Barna Bozoki

  on May  2 10:17:07 EDT 1997 HUNGARY #987,
apparently after a long session of his favorite solitary pastime, wrote the
following nonsense:

>At 06:08 AM 5/2/97 -0400, Ferenc Novak, yakking about masturbation, wrote:
>
Poor Joe, apparently hallucinating, now projects his own thoughts (?) onto
others.
He is like Moricka in the classic joke saying: "Nekem mindenrol AZ jut
eszembe!"

 on Apr 30 00:25:33 EDT 1997 in HUNGARY #985:
>
><snip>
>>>Yes, I am. What would the equivalent insult be in Hungarian? "Zsargo"?
>>>Sam Stowe
>
>>What's the use of this type of personal attack?  Others might argue that
>>Stowe might actually be better but for the foreign sound of it.
>>
>>Ferenc
>
>Are you one of those who's arguing that point?  And, by the way, how are
>you treating your 'carpal tunnel syndrome', Ferenc?
>
>Joe Szalai

Whatever he means by all this, let's hope he washes his hand before switching
to the keyboard.

Ferenc

So freedom of religion means no avoidance of preying in
the alleged democracies.  I didn't even try to use
my "right" to get the kids out of this, as it would have
involved discrimination/isolation. I trusted, that
they would develop their own critical thinking
outside school. And they did.  They always had option
to question and investigate - very rarely in school -
so there are no regrets and guilty feelings.

Eva D





>
> >        And that reminds me of what was going on in 1956/57. After
> arriving
> >in Austria we were most surprised to find out that suddenly religion was
> an
> >important consideration. It made a huge difference whether you were a
> >Catholic, a Protestant, or a Jew because most of the charities were
> >organized through church organizations. This could be a real nuisance.
> >        In any case, after arriving in Canada, the churches started
> >pestering you. If the Catholic priest phoned, I was Hungarian Reformed
> >(which I was) but when the Hungarian Reformed minister phoned suddenly I
> >became a Catholic. That system worked very nicely. ESB
> >
> >Yes, the system was very confusing and a surprise.  However, Eva, do you
> have children?  Because with us the system continued to be very
> confusing.  I met my husband in the Fluchtlingslager Schwechat.  The
> question of religion came up one day casually and it turned out that we
> originally came from different faiths.  He was a renegate catholic while
> I was a renegate Jew.  Everything was fine and dandy until our children
> had to start school in Montreal.  For those who are not familiar with the
> system in Quebec, children of catholic fathers go to catholic school
> because that's were their education taxes are going.  Everybody else goes
> to the protestant school system.  Since my husband declared that no child
> of his will go to a catholic school, everybody was declared Jewish and my
> children went to the protestant system.  Now, we thought that was it
> until we visited Hungary and my husband's family.  As it turned out, they
> were loyal to the faith and there were nice Virgin Maries on their
> bedroom walls.  To make a long story short, we had a lot of problems with
> the identity crisis of our children and if I could start over again, I
> would definitely do it in a different way.  On this continent you have to
> belong somewhere and you should decide where you want to belong and why
> before you start to raise children.
> Sory for this long story.   Agnes
> >
> >

> Having actually conversed with such people, I'll field this one.  Yes, it
> sounds nuts.  To everyone.  Lourdes sounds nuts.  The Virgin Mary
> appearing in the grass in Poland sounds nuts.  Heck, evolution sounds like
> the craziest thing anyone ever heard of.  Truth is nuts, lots of the time.
>  Fiction is much more plausible.
>

Perhaps this thing I've heard about science education in the US
is true.     If you equate the physical evidence of evolution
with only urban-legend status of miracles and give consideration to
the idea of a few thousands years old Earth as per the Bible,
than there are serious problems, indeed.

If there is a lot of evidence for a theory, than it is accepted as
the best approximation of reality.  This method of thinking helped people to
put a lot of theory into practice, and allow us to take granted a lot
of what we've got and makes us optimistic to achieve more.

Reality won't go away when you stop believing in it.
Keep your mind open by all means, but don't let your brain drop out.
Yes, people haven't been able to create anything as amazing as the
material world that they are trying to comprehend, with forever improving
grasp. And yes, it all exists and yes it has no bearing on  the
appearence of a self-conscious mass of molecules.
and above mentioned entities can be happy and moral without being
ruled by gods.
Sorry - but this point of view is not aired very often these days,
and our world is not better for it.

I do hope that in their work there is no "deserving"
(convertable, so to speak)
and "undeserving" poor.
Unfortunately in lot of cases in the past, it worked out like that,
so there is some cause for skepticicm.


>
> You know, Sam, I agree with you.  I don't think the two are exclusive, but
> I agree with you nonetheless.  And it does depend on the mission, too.  My
> parents-in-law are in Papua New Guinea right now doing exactly what you
> suggest, at the behest of the LDS Church.  Similar missionaries are in
> Hungary doing the same thing.
>
> Kristof
>

At 06:18 AM 5/6/97 GMT, Kristof wrote:
>Fencsik Gabor wrote:

It was not Fencsik, it was Farkas (another Gabor).

Thank you for your reply. I have another question about your religion. It is
the only one (that I know of) that requires a membership card for access
into its temples. Why?

Gabor D. Farkas

MDtoCEO wrote:
>
> Istvan Lippai wrote:
>
> >I just heard on the radio that Mormons, because of their lifestyle, live,
> >on an average, 8-11 years longer than the rest of us.
>
> And have 8% the national average of cirrhosis of the liver, and 7% the
> national suicide rate.  Obviously this religion would be a disaster for
> Hungary.
>
> Kristof
He can4t stop missioning, can he?

Dear Colleagues,

With the Pilgrimage at Csiksomlyo (Europe's largest Catholic festival and one
of its oldest, held since 1567) occuring on this coming Saturday, it would
seem appropriate to make a concerted effort on the behalf of the csangos, to
gain the attention of both the media and of the Catholic authorities, so that
they might be allowed to worship in their native language. It seems that we
could do the folowing:

1) One of you, who is fully knowledgeable about the 1567 events and the
history of the last 430 years, could prepare a one page news release, which
we all could send out to our respective papers and media.

2) We could all send letters to the following Catholic authorities asking
them to allow native language masses and schools for the csangos:
     a) His Holiness, Pope John Paul, Vatican City, Italy
     b) The Honorable Archbishop  Ioan Robu, 70749 Bucuresti, Str. Nuferiol
19.,
Romania,  Tel: 40-1-614-55-31, 40-1-613-39-36,  Fax: 40-1-312-12-07
     c) Episcop Petru Gherghel, Episcopia Romano Catolika, Blvd. Stefan cel
Mare, 26
6000 IASI, ROMANIA (Fax: 40-32-21-1527)
     d) Dr. Seregely Istvan, Egri ersek, 3300-Eger, Szechenyi u. 1, Hungary
(Fax: 011-36-320-508)
     e) We could also ask the Presidents of Romania and Hungary to JOINTLY
support this request.

3) As during the celebrations, the organizers will announce the
congratulations received from around the World, we might send such
congratulations to the priest of Csiksomlyo: Istvan Gabor or fax such
congratulations indirectly to:
       a) Vilmos Tanczos at the Language and Literature Department of the
Babes Bolyai University (Fax: 011-40-64-432-303), who will pass it on.

Best regards: Bela Liptak

Miklos Hoffman wrote:

> MDtoCEO wrote:

> > Istvan Lippai wrote:
> > >I just heard on the radio that Mormons, because of their lifestyle, live,
> > >on an average, 8-11 years longer than the rest of us.

> > And have 8% the national average of cirrhosis of the liver, and 7% the
> > national suicide rate.  Obviously this religion would be a disaster for
> > Hungary.

> He can4t stop missioning, can he?

Well, in this case he has conveyed relevant statistical facts, capped with
an ironic comment.  Given Hungary's dismal record on those counts, he has a
point.  He can at least offer a soother that can work in the short run,
others, myself included, can only recommend long-term remedies that would
help few now.

I too happen to think that it would be much preferable for those people in
Hungary in need of a psychological crutch to find it in religion, be it
Mormons or Jehova's Witnesses or Islam or Buddhism or Hare Krishna, than
drowning their sorrows in alcohol or in killing themselves in despair.

This would improve their lot and also that of those people who are in no
need of such guidance in their lives.  Since the established churches are
obviously unable to reach such people in need, the charismatics or exotics
may as well have a go.  Every soul saved is also one less burden on the
Hungarian social security system, so it is a positive sum game.

BTW of the Hare Krishna: they seem to be doing fine in Hungary, the regional
Krishna headquarters has been established close to Budapest.  These guys
also have the promise of mitigating the excesses of the Hungarian diet ;-)

George Antony

Agnes Heringer wrote:

>   For those who are not familiar with the
> system in Quebec, children of catholic fathers go to catholic school
> because that's were their education taxes are going.  Everybody else goes
> to the protestant school system.

This is astonishing and must be totally unique in the developed world !  And
in a Francophone country, err, province, of all places - I always thought that
the French were the champions in separating church and state.

Hungarian relevance ?  Well, even poor Hungary is better on this count than
a developed Western country. I just hope that such a situation will not arise
in Hungary, and the growing church-associated schools remain a choice,
rather than an imposition.

George Antony

On Tue, 6 May 1997, MDtoCEO wrote:

> Fencsik Gabor wrote:
>
>> I understand (and, please, Kristof correct me if I am wrong) that
>> Mormons collect lists of dead people of all religions and they
>> "convert" them. I find this practice (if true) un-appealing.

Not that it matters a whole lot, but the attribution is in error.
The quote comes (I believe) from another Gabor.  I have no strong
opinions on post-death conversion.  After I am dead, you may convert
me to Zoroastrianism, or have me join an Ashram posthumously.  All I
ask in return, conversion-wise, is to be left alone in this life.

-----
Gabor Fencsik

I would have some comment/question to Jeliko:

He wrote:

>2) The first bombing of Budapest was on Sept 4, 1944 by the Russians.

and also:

>8) The first major raid on Budapest occurred on Apr 3, 1944.

There may be some confusion with the dates, here.

>3) Bardossy submitted his war "declaration on Dec 12, 1941, but the Us
>response the Senate ratification of war with Hungary was made only on June
>5, 1942
 ....
>5) The Hungarians violated a "sub-rosa'" agreement with the allies in Nov
>1943 by crossing the then Hungarianborder at Barcs to attack Yugoslav
>partisan forces.

What do these facts have to do with the air-raids?

J.Zs

S.Stowe wrote:

>>I guess claiming that Janos is a stupid and unimaginative liar doesn't
>>quite belong in a rational argument.
>>.......
>>
>
>It does when he's using a line of attack someone else tried months ago and
>quickly discarded out of embarrasment. It meets the necessary and
>sufficient conditions of that quality most of us call "truth."

Well, Sam, can you tell me exactly when and what I lied. You can say I am
stupid and my conclusions are wrong or I am unimaginative but not liar.
Actually I tried to be very accurate with facts, as far as I remember
I was the one who had to and could support my statement by reposting one
of your earlier writting.
By the way, not too long ago we had a discussion about the wolf-packs,
i.e whether they attacked US shipping off the US coast prior Pearl Harbour.
You said you needed some time to refresh your knowledge about the subject
and would provide some detail about those attacks. You still refreshing?
I wonder whether you can support your statements about those subs or you
simple 'misremember'.

J.Zs

J.Zs

E.Durant wrote:

>Yes, people haven't been able to create anything as amazing as the
>material world that they are trying to comprehend, with forever improving
>grasp. And yes, it all exists and yes it has no bearing on  the
>appearence of a self-conscious mass of molecules.
>and above mentioned entities can be happy and moral without being
>ruled by gods.
>Sorry - but this point of view is not aired very often these days,
>and our world is not better for it.

Nice belief, because the above is not more then that. I respect it
and I personally have no problem reading such thing on the list. I
don't know anything about the others.

>Reality won't go away when you stop believing in it.
>Keep your mind open by all means, but don't let your brain drop out.

I agree, this is a very important though to everyone, believer or non-
believer. But let me have a little sarcastic comment, whenever you
advocate those communistic beliefs you should remember that piece
"Reality won't go away when you stop believing in it.".

J.Zs

>        And that reminds me of what was going on in 1956/57. After
arriving
>in Austria we were most surprised to find out that suddenly religion was
an
>important consideration. It made a huge difference whether you were a
>Catholic, a Protestant, or a Jew because most of the charities were
>organized through church organizations. This could be a real nuisance.
>        In any case, after arriving in Canada, the churches started
>pestering you. If the Catholic priest phoned, I was Hungarian Reformed
>(which I was) but when the Hungarian Reformed minister phoned suddenly I
>became a Catholic. That system worked very nicely. ESB
>
>Yes, the system was very confusing and a surprise.  However, Eva, do you
have children?  Because with us the system continued to be very
confusing.  I met my husband in the Fluchtlingslager Schwechat.  The
question of religion came up one day casually and it turned out that we
originally came from different faiths.  He was a renegate catholic while
I was a renegate Jew.  Everything was fine and dandy until our children
had to start school in Montreal.  For those who are not familiar with the
system in Quebec, children of catholic fathers go to catholic school
because that's were their education taxes are going.  Everybody else goes
to the protestant school system.  Since my husband declared that no child
of his will go to a catholic school, everybody was declared Jewish and my
children went to the protestant system.  Now, we thought that was it
until we visited Hungary and my husband's family.  As it turned out, they
were loyal to the faith and there were nice Virgin Maries on their
bedroom walls.  To make a long story short, we had a lot of problems with
the identity crisis of our children and if I could start over again, I
would definitely do it in a different way.  On this continent you have to
belong somewhere and you should decide where you want to belong and why
before you start to raise children.
Sory for this long story.   Agnes
>
>

Denes writes:
>The problem is that when aircraft dropped down to roof height and the crew
started to >spray with machine gun and cannon fire anything that moved, I
think my statements are >justified as statements of fact and deduction. I
was very careful to use quotation >marks so as to lessen the seriousness but
I can offer no other conclusion when women >and children in the street were
hit. Surely they were not military targets. Initially >in WW II the bombing
raids were directed against military targets but by the time the >American
Air Force became involved and both the British and American bombers started
to >attack Hungary it was a case of hit the target or anything else. I do
not have a >particular animosity against the Americans but unfortunately the
facts speak for >themselves.


The bombing of Hungary was mainly by the US 15th Air Force and only limited
raids were conducted by the Brits.

High altitude bombing was the routine. The major exception was the mine
laying operations on the Danube. The fighter/interceptors were not very
effective
over Hungary, but flak was always a more feared weapon for the bombing
crews. This is also born out by the loss records. There is very limited
evidence both from allied and Hungarian records for any low altitude
strafing. The volumes by Pataki Ivan, Rozsos Laszlo and Sarhidai Gyula
"Legihaboru Magyarorszag felett" Zrinyi kiado, 1992, are a compilation of
the avialable records from both sides. If one reviews the maps, the civilian
targets hit (Hungarian records) were generally within the vicinity of the
original targets (US records). For the instrumentation of the times, it even
surprised me. Naturally, there were bombs dropped also upon mechanical
damage to the aircraft (to enable maintaining altitude), which were wherever
the failure occurred. The major targets were bridges (mosly rail), railroad
yards, oil refineries, aircraft assembly plants and other industrial locations.

I have observed many raids, and the ones I remember were high altitude
flights. One could count the bombs and see their separation in the air into
wider clusters. (The wind direction does change between the bombing altitude
and lower levels.)

No Hungarian city was targeted for "demoralization" raids as it occurred
over Germany and Japan and when looking at the damage in those cities which
were so targeted, the difference is obvious.

Regards,Jeliko

Janos Zsargo pointing out a sloppy mistake and asking for comments.

> I would have some comment/question to Jeliko:
>
>He wrote:
>
>>2) The first bombing of Budapest was on Sept 4, 1944 by the Russians.

I was too much into the 1944 theme. The first raid on Budapest was on Sept
4, 1942 by the Russians. It was a small scale effort.
>
>and also:
>
>>8) The first major raid on Budapest occurred on Apr 3, 1944.
>
>There may be some confusion with the dates, here.
>
The latter was the first big US raid on Budapest.


>>3) Bardossy submitted his war "declaration" on Dec 12, 1941, but the US
>>response, the Senate ratification of war with Hungary was made only on June
>>5, 1942
>....
In the various discussions, there was a thread about who declared war on
whom and when.

>>5) The Hungarians violated a "sub-rosa'" agreement with the allies in Nov
>>1943 by crossing the then Hungarian border at Barcs to attack Yugoslav
>>partisan forces.
>

The decision to consider the bombing of Hungary was also influenced by the
violation of the agreement with the allies that Hungary would not
participate in war activities in the German occupied part of Yugoslavia



Regards,Jeliko

Miklos writes:
>Sorry. I lived there. There was a lot of bombing during night. My
>IMPRESSION was, that up until late summer there was more during the
>night. And there was a lot of flak and fighter up in the sky hunting
>the USAF and the RAF. At least this is what I saw.

Memories can be misleading. There is a fairly extensive review of the air
war over Hungary.

1) The first bombing by the US of Hungary took place on Oct 24, 1943. The
major target was Wiener Neustadt, but Places in Somogy, Zala, Vas and Sopron
counties were also bombed.
It can be presumed that the bombing was incidental to the original target.
Bombers, generally dump their load for reasons of mechanical damage to
maintain altitude.
Similar bombing of Hungary took place also on Jan 7 and Jan 23, 1944 in
connection with a raid on Maribor.

2) The first bombing of Budapest was on Sept 4, 1944 by the Russians.

3) Bardossy submitted his war "declaration on Dec 12, 1941, but the Us
response the Senate ratification of war with Hungary was made only on June
5, 1942

4) The tragets in Hungary were asembled by the OSS by Sept 11, 1942, mainly
by the cooperation of Hungarian emigrees.

5) The Hungarians violated a "sub-rosa'" agreement with the allies in Nov
1943 by crossing the then Hungarianborder at Barcs to attack Yugoslav
partisan forces.

6) On Nov 25, 1943 Eisenhower in a note to the British general staff stated
that Hungfary can be bombed with good results.

7) The US 15th Air force received its instructions to initiate bombing
Hungary on Feb 2, 1944. The raid was cancelled due to bad weather. A few
days subsequent to this the oredr was countermanded until March 25, 1944.

8) The first major raid on Budapest occurred on Apr 3, 1944.

9) Most of the raids on Hungary were by the US 15th air force, as daytime
high altitude raids. Major exceptions were the mining activity of the Danube
to block
oil shipments.

10) Because most of the raids were high altitude bombings, naturally the
fighters were aslo at similar altitudes, thus minimal strafing of any
poulation took place.

11) US plane losses reported over Hungary were 264.

12) Hungarian human (both civilan and militray) losses due to bombing were
reported as 19,135 (those who died within three years of wounding also
included) of which ~6,500 were in Budapest.

Regards,Jeliko

Gabor Fencsik writes:
>Not that it matters a whole lot, but the attribution is in error.
>The quote comes (I believe) from another Gabor.  I have no strong
>opinions on post-death conversion.  After I am dead, you may convert
>me to Zoroastrianism, or have me join an Ashram posthumously.  All I
>ask in return, conversion-wise, is to be left alone in this life.

Gabor, I think you have your religions mixed up. Th Zoroastrians are
concerned with fire while they are alive, it is some other faiths that
involve you with fire after you die.
But I share your opinion about being left alone.

Regards,Jeliko