At 05:42 PM 1/22/96 -0500, Johanne L. Tournier wrote:

>Okay, if you tell me what the "queen bee syndrome" is, I'll give it my best
>shot!

I was making a rather snide remark.  Your negative remarks about feminism
reminded me of those women who managed to succeed in their chosen field only
to say that being a women was no obstacle to them.  It's like Maggie
Thatcher saying that being a women was never a handicap for her.  I've
always believed that the subtext in comments like that is that a woman only
has herself to blame if things don't turn out the way she wanted.

I think the 'queen bee syndrome' refers to the fact that every hive has only
one female, the queen.  And that queen bee can say (if bees could talk) that
being female was not a problem for her.  No kidding, eh?  Anyway, your
comments about feminism sounded like queen bee talk.

Joe Szalai

At 02:51 PM 1/22/96 -0500, Doug Hormann wrote:

>        I wish that I could find such simple black and white answers to
>life's difficult problems.

But you do Doug.  You do have simple black and white answers to difficult
problems.  It seems that for you, a critic of capitalism, is a
communist/socialist.  That's about as simple as it gets.

>It's clear that you think capitalism is a
>failure as a system.  If by failure you mean that it hasn't brought about
>heaven on earth, you are correct.  It's only when you compare it too ALL
>other systems that capitalism merits can be seen.

I guess my vision is blured by all the heretical thoughts in my twisted and
confused mind.

>        Face it Joe, communism/socialism is a failure.  To show this lets
>compare capitalism on the American model with Communism of the defunct
>Soviet model.

God, it's so difficult being an iconoclast these days.  I criticize
capitalism and a lot of writers on this newsgroup want me to defend former,
discredited, political systems.  Is capitalism so fragile that it can't
withstand some rigorous criticism?

I used to think that the beauty of our democratic system was our ability to
criticize, in the hope and expection, that the criticism would do some good.
It seems to me that some writers on this list are willing to give up some
freedoms in exchange for security.  Well, those who give up freedom for
security deserve neither.  Criticism, and not docile complancency, is the
life blood of democracy.  A lot of the defenders of capitalism are acting
exactely like the cadres of the 'communist system'.

Joe Szalai

I am trying to find someone in Hungary in the Kaposvar/Pecs area that
would be willing to accept e-mail from me for my brother who is ging to
be living in that area for the next 6 to 12 months. He will not have a
computer of his own since he will be traveling all over the country
procuring supplies for the U.S. forces in the Kapsvar/Tuzla theater. We
are both fluent in hungarian and english, so you can respond to me in
either languages.

My sincere apologies to all of you, I have neglected to sign my previous
posting. I am new to this thing, this is my first time on a news server,
I wasn't even sure I managed to post it.
I am looking forward to hearing from some one.

Visz 'olvasasra'

Jozsi

Archive-name: hungarian/pointer
Soc-culture-magyar-archive-name: pointer
Bit-listserv-hungary-archive-name: pointer
Version: 0.90 (beta)
Posting-Frequency: monthly
Last-modified: 1995/11/21
URL: http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/hungarian-faq-pointer

 This document summarizes network-related resources of Hungarian
interest, which are accessible via email. Some of the most readily
available sources of information can be found in the archives of
periodical information postings to Usenet; these documents are commonly
known as FAQs (from Frequently Asked/Answered Questions). Knowing the
name of the file you can retrieve it by sending email to
 with the command "send
usenet/news.answers/<ARCHIVE-NAME>" in the message (without the quotes,
and with substituting the actual name for <ARCHIVE-NAME> in the pattern
shown above) - for example, to get the document described below, use

 send usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq

 To learn more about the RTFM server just send the command "help" to it
- it will provide step-by-step intstructions on how to use the
archives, on retrieving indexes and so on.

 "Hungarian electronic resources FAQ" is a comprehensive collection
dealing with email, FTP, WWW and other Internet tools; its archive name
is 'hungarian-faq' (and the mail-server command to get it is shown in
the example above).
 If you only have direct access to email then, in order to use the
other tools, you'll need the methods described in "Accessing The
Internet By E-Mail" (Archive-name:
internet-services/access-via-email).
 To get a general introduction to Usenet (with some guides to Internet
as well - and explanation of how they are different, too) see "Welcome
to news.newusers.questions!" (Archive-name: news-newusers-intro).
 For a guide to finding someone's e-mail addresses, see the "FAQ: How
to find people's E-mail addresses" (Archive-name: finding-addresses).
Do notice that it's usually inappropriate to send such blanket requests
to mailing lists; the search tools available give much better chance to
locate addresses sought than posted queries in any case!
 An overview of commercial on-line services in Hungary is available by
John Horvath >
(Archive-name: hungarian/comm-providers).

 The hungarian-faq describes several email lists related to Hungary;
only a brief summary is shown here. Please keep in mind that
subscription requests (and other administrative communications) should
be directed to the server address, NOT to the lists themselves.

Server: 
 List:  (the HUNGARY LISTSERV list)

Server: 
 List: HOL (Hungary Online)

Server: 
 List: hungary-report

Server: 
 Lists: OMRI-L (Open Media Research Institute Daily Digest)
        MIDEUR-L (Middle European discussion list)

Server: 
 List: cet-online (Central Europe Today On-Line; email )

Server: 
 List: CERRO-L (Central European Regional Research Organization)

Server: email to  (Hollosi Information Exchange)
 Lists: HIX is a collection of several separate lists, including
  - MOZAIK, a collection of news items in English
  - various discussion forums in Hungarian language
  - SCM and HUNGROUPS, which are email-accessible archives of the Usenet
    newsgroup soc.culture.magyar and the hun.* national hierarchy,
    respectively; to get a directory listing of these archives (as well
    as that of other HIX lists), send email to  with
    "arch" in the 'Subject:' line. Note that the SENDDOC utility takes
    its parameter from the 'Subject:' of the message (unlike many other
    servers, like the ones described previously, which use the body)!

 Note that this document is available on the
 <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>; homepage for the "Hungarian
electronic resources FAQ" at the HIX WWW-server.
 The latter also provides access for the full FAQ via
 'finger ', and for this brief pointer you are
reading via 'finger ' (notice that you
will likely need to redirect the output to a pager or a file in order
to read it). The Usenet archive name for this document is
 hungarian/pointer .

--
 Zoli , keeper of <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>;
 <'finger '>
 NOTE: spamsters and bulk emailers see 'X-Policy*:' in the
header for the charges to be imposed for net abuse!

>
> Joe Szalai:
>
> >Capitalism is an exploitive economic system.
>
> We know your political views and you can preach to me about your socialism
 till
>  doomsday and I will not change my mind.


I wonder, who's been dogmatic here. I see a democratic socialist
 system as a solution to all the problems existing in
capitalism (which don't seem to matter to E.B. ever).
But if someone would convince me, that capitalism can solve
all its problems and provide a safe future, than hey, I would
be happy not to worry about the possible viciousness of the next
revolutions...


 Moreover, let
>  's not change the subject from feminism to capitalism.
>

I think all the single-issue movements such as feminism,
anti-racism, CND, greens are useless, as a system based
on market economy cannot possibly bring solution.
E.g. you cannot be a capitalist/conservative feminist.
You'll end up at best with a few more numbers in the
establishment, but they will do nothing to improve the
rest, because that needs the curbing of profits for
cheap nursery places and decent salaries for women.


>
> Whether you like or not Hungary at the moment is trying to build a market
 econom
>  y (capitalism) and switching over to democracy. Therefore, those who are
 agains
>  t both are actually reaffirming the former system where there
> was neither freedom nor economic growth.
>


I'm not sure, that what you say is so. Why did they vote
for a party which calls
itself  "socialist"?   In what way is democracy is improving?
Go to a village in Somogy, and see, if people feel more
free or democratic, as before.  Don't forget, freedom
also means to be able to buy (afford) in the shops what
other people can, to have good, free education, nurseries,
to be able to walk out of a job, if you are fed up with it, etc.
So, please realise, that the freedom and democracy you
cherish in the US/Hungary is relative, it doesn't work so well for
everybody.
Eva Durant

> life's difficult problems.  It's clear that you think capitalism is a
> failure as a system.  If by failure you mean that it hasn't brought about
> heaven on earth, you are correct.  It's only when you compare it too ALL
> other systems that capitalism merits can be seen.
> >         Face it Joe, communism/socialism is a failure.  To show this lets
> compare capitalism on the American model with Communism of the defunct
> Soviet model.
>
>

Before capitalist society evolved, you coudn't compare feudalism
to any other system, should have feudalism stayed with us forever,
just because forawhile it proved to be better, than the then existing
others (slavery, nomad etc)


        You spoke of capitalism as screwing the most people.  The standard
> of living is pretty high in the United States.  Even the poorest people
> have television and video cassette recorders.  Nobody is starving in the
> streets.  More people have cars than in any other nation.  Unemployment is
> low (although an argument can be made that many are underemployed) and
> people are banging down the door to get in.  Altogether a pretty harsh
> existence, eh.
>

Unfortunately the standard of living cannot be measured real
well by the number of consumer goods owned.   If you have no
hope for a secure future and the constant idea, that you are not
as valuable than others, because you cannot afford the lifestyle
as perceived to be on the media, than you are as unfulfilled and
angry as the  poor of any third world (capitalist)
country, even if there are a few brainwashing devices such as
drugs/alcohol/religion/tv to numb you to apathy.

You cannot look at communism, as it did not exist as
Marx/Engels/etc describe it, as the economic and conscious
conditions did not exist for its success. Which no way means,
that if the economic base is 100 times more developed, and
the people have the means (literacy/i.t.) to take part actively
in a democracy, it would not solve all the problems, capitalism
can't for the last 100 years.  Do you say, there cannot be, and we
should not look for alternatives to a system, which doesn't
work for the vast majority of mankind, not even for the majority
in the "best" places?


>
>         Joe, I'm a card carrying environmentalist.  I've stood soaking wet
> in the rain protesting overharvesting of our forests and the related
> pollution of our streams and rivers.  While I believe the system runs too
> slowly at times, at least I can do something.  That's the beauty of
> democracy and capitalism working together.  They tend to balance each other
> and keep each other from reaching any extreme position.  Communism, being
> both the political and economic system has no such checks and balances.

If you think democracy works in the US, or in other places,
you are not really looking critically.  The media is owned
by those who have no interest in criticising.  Elections are
bigger and bigger farce, with less and less people voting,
and they are voting on catchphrases thought up by ad-companies,
not on political ideas to be  implemented.
Real democracy with full participation is not in the interest
of the present establishment.


>         Of course, you don't have to believe me.  Still I find it hard to
> understand your position in the face of such overwhelming evidence to the
> contrary.
>

same here... your overhelmig evidence is not convincing,
if all you can point to is a system which is not advocated by
socialism, and infact shows a good lesson now in how not to
do it, but in my opinion, based on present conditions that
would be impossible, while try as you may, you cannot state,
that capitalism is a guarantee against totalitarianism.
Eva Durant

>
>         Your argument is compelling, yet I still don't see where the
> economic system can be blamed for what is essentially a social system that
> goes back centuries.  The problem of which you speak seems to transcend the
> economic system in place.  This would seem to indicate that the system is
> not at the root of the problem, but that it lies somewhere else.
>

The economic system is responsible to pressurise companies
to make a profit to pay shareholders more and more, and to pay
for the expenses of competition, whether they want it or
not. You cannot be a benevolent capitalist, because you
and up being a bankrupt capitalist. As simple as that...
Eva Durant

> the first two or three years is about the right period. of course in extended
> families the situation is alleviated by the availability of grand-parents or
> aunties and uncles or cousins.
>

I think after the first year, the home environment is not
sufficiently stimulating for baby and parents.  In my experience,
babies who were frequently taken and left in creche-s due to
parents' outside activites, turned out to be more flexible
and happier with necessary changes in ther lives. Also
they had happy and not constantly guilt-ridden parents.
(A lot of people forget, that the first condition for
happy childhood is to have happy parents.)
Eva Durant

At 05:49 PM 1/22/96 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:

>It's easy. You draw conclusion without  much thinking and careful
>study of the given problem, using merely your prejudices and
>axioms (= something considered to be true, without proofs).

Kedves kapitalista szimpatizansom!

I'm very greatful to you for showing me the errors of my way of thinking, or
rather, as you so generously point out, my lack of thinking.  It now seems
that I was greatly mistaken to think that my life experience meant anything.
Perhaps I should have listened to those people who told me that I would be
too old too soon and too wise too late.

And I'm especially honoured that you've taken your precious time to explain
the meaning of 'axiom'.  Perhaps you've known all along that I enjoy
building my vocabulary.  Up until now I've depended on Readers Digest to
improve my lexicon.  (And if you can keep a secret, I can tell you that I
get most, if not all, of my ideas from Readers Digest as well.  It sure
beats reading those awful tomes!  I mean, who really has the time for them,
eh?)

Anyway, Janos (maybe one day you'll allow me to call you Jancsi), I don't
want to take any more of your time.  I just wanted to express my gratitude
for your unselfish willingness to help me.  Geez.  You're like a brother to me.

Szia!

A kedvenc ocsiked

*.:   I did not have time to figure it out how to email in HL,
    so I am sending it
    to the Hungary and address it mainly for Liptak Bela and HL :

    HISTORY EDUCATION/TEACHING/EXAM in high schools
    FOR HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA in Hungary.

    The HL must keep to be active in ongoing subjects, but also
    must do something against that some buttheads in Hungary try to create
    a situation where the HISTORY exam for high school diploma
    is not a requirement.
      The HL must write articles at least published in Hungarian media
    to protest against this. Peoples around us who have gotten
    purely Hungarian territories with purely Hungarian
    population in Trianon Treaty. When this fact is mentioned only,
    they react histerically. They try to ban the Hungarian
    language, try to decrease the Hungarian schools
    in any possible way using all possible philosophy (protection
    of state, etc.). The extreme persons even try to spread the
    "pure history" s.t. Hungarians never lived in some areas.
      Real big shitheads, e.g. Funar Gyuri, who even not welcomed among
    some Romanian politicians, and who made many things to destroy
    relationship between Hungarians and Romaninas told recently :
    Matyas kiraly (King Mathias) was Romanian. He forced to exhibit this
    in Enlish (!). The reason is clear : If Matyas was Romanian, later
    everything what make us remember to the history can be destroyed
    being those simple Romanian internal affair.
      Slovaks ban the Hungarian language in offices, and we allow
    in Hungarian high schools the Hungarian literature NOT to be
    a requirement ? Who will be happy with this? Lemonade Joe?

    HL MUST DO SOMETHING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*.: Czifra L. Kesz rohej inspired me to write the following,
    the date was Jan 18 96.
  I have sent it, however it did not appear in Hungary;
  I may have some difficulties to
  send comments via email. Let me send again :

    May be, but it has made me cry.
    From the same place I red another news :
  Meciar alias Limonade Joe has accepted a suggestion from that (?) party
  which allows later the slovakization by law. I deleted the email, but
  was it BLA news?
    That is it. We are back in the 30s, where law can be made against
  nationalities.  Until this time at least right existed by law, but not
  in practice. We are "developing" this vickid word : Just tomorow
  even law will not garantee the right for some unwanted nationalities.
  But this is just the wheel of hystory which seems to ready to make another
  turn in/on the same way.
    Meciar emphasizes that international law does not garantee Hungarian
  autonomy, even if the garantee is less, the existing privileges can be
  cut. The person who just visited them for checking the minorities should
  have told them : The international law does not garante the existence of
  Slovakia as well.
    I am surprised. A country which just did not exist up to a years ago,
  they commit the same untolerance to other people that was done against them
  in the history. Do/did they deserve the symphaty in 1968 or in certain
  difficult years in WWII ? They are "sem jobbak  a Deakne vasznanal".
    Dictionary :
  Kesz rohej : What is this real life or a comedy ?
  Ok sem jobbak a Deakne vasznanal : They are not better than Mrs.Deak's
               material as well = They are not good (here : tolerant persons)
               as well.
                         Dr. Dr. K.S.

L. J. Elteto asks "what is this Faith Church?  What is it called in Hungari-
an?  And where in Bp is this megachurch located?"

I knew several students and student-aged people in Debrecen who were ardent
adherents of the Faith Church, called "Hitgyulekezet" in Hungarian.  It's
main "service" in Debrecen is on Sunday afternoons, from 3 until about 6 or 7,
in an auditorium at the Agricultural University.  Once or twice on week-
nights, there is a slightly smaller "service" held in a meeting room of a
local public school downtown, usually from 6 to around 8 pm.  The head
"minister" of the Debrecen congregation was a young, handsome, dynamic, ar-
ticulate attorney.  When I asked my informant where he was ordained and by
whom, the reply was "he was ordained by the Holy Spirit."

As I understand it, about once a month there is a huge rally/"service" held
in one of the big sports stadiums in Bp, with about 5,000 attendees.  The
central part of the service seems to be vigorous hymn-singing and lengthy
preaching, with much evidence of people being "touched" by the spirit
--speaking in tongues, uncontrolled shaking of the body, and lengthy fits of
fainting.  (I observed serveral instances of the latter in Debrecen, with no
hint of phoniness about them.)

As in such religious movements in the U.S., from which the Hungarian variant
seems to have gotten its inspiration and most of its hymns and music, as well
as general style, there is also skullduggery--my informant, a young woman in
her early 20's, indicated that a previous "preacher" had stolen millions of
forints in donations that had been collected to build a church building in
Debrecen.  My own limited observations from attending several services in

Debrecen suggest that most of the members there are young men and women,
either actual university students or of university age, although there was
a sprinkling of older adults, mostly men.  The "Hitgyulekezet" also publishes
a hymnal and a number of lengthy tracts containing articles mostly translated
from U.S. evangelical publications.  A centrl obsession seems to be with
sexual morality and chastity, of an obviously fairly "puritanical" sort.
What struck me about the services, however, was the obvious joy and enthusi-
asm that the participants brought to the singing and Bible study,in marked
contrast to the rather rigid services to be found in the mainstream Catholic
and Reformed churches.  The "signs" of the Holy Spirit, however, seemed to
me to conform to what psychologists here call hysterical behavior.

I too would very much like to find more information about this church and
its origins, organization, financing, personnel, and clientele.  It seems
to be a spiritual force to be reckoned with, although I know nothing about
its political influence, nor did I get any hint that its members cared about
such things at all.  Most of the emphasis seems to be on personal religiosity
and salvation--I saw no evidence of any concern with what we might call "so-
cial action" or charitable work.

Any other perspectives?

Udv.,
Be'la

Girls !!!!!!!!
  Hungarian Feminism ========> SZALON
  I guess the Hungary is not a proper media for it.
  Szalon was created strickly for this !!!

                         Dr. Dr. K.S.

Is something wrong with this picture?

Peter Kormos, a member of the Ontario legislature for the New Democratic
Party (NDP), announced this morning that he will seek the leadership of the
party.  Kormos represents the town of Welland, a community with sizable
French and Hungarian speaking folk.  The NDP is a not-so-left-wing social
democratic party that was in power in Ontario until last June.  Kormos
intends to lead the party further left if he wins the leadership.

Steve Szalai (no relation to me) is the leader of the Socialist party of
Canada.  The Socialist party has never elected a member and probably never will
.

Canada is one of the richest nations in the world and Ontario is Canada's
richest province.  Why is it then, that some people of Hungarian background,
people who should know better, are turning to the political left?  Could it
be that the long 'yellow brick road' does not lead to Oz??

Joe Szalai

Sandor,

Szalon is in Hungarian.  This is an international list.  In English.
             ~~~~~~~~~                                      ~~~~~~~
Perhaps Jozsi should start another magazine, called "Parlor."  That would
be a proper place for discussions of this nature.

And while I am at it, maybe it would serve us all much better, if there
were another list, called "Wrestling" for the benefit of those who are
trying to show *brawn* power in place of *brain* power.  It would purge us
from the unnecessary duels that have become name-calling contests of late.
One can always dream...

My two cents on the subject.
Martha



On Tue, 23 Jan 1996, Sandor Kristyan wrote:

> HUNGARY FEMINISM (OVER)
>
>   Girls !!!!!!!!
>   Hungarian Feminism ========> SZALON
>   I guess the Hungary is not a proper media for it.
>   Szalon was created strickly for this !!!
>
>                          Dr. Dr. K.S.
>

>HUNGARY FEMINISM (OVER)
>
>  Girls !!!!!!!!
>  Hungarian Feminism ========> SZALON
>  I guess the Hungary is not a proper media for it.
>  Szalon was created strickly for this !!!
>
>                         Dr. Dr. K.S.


Thanks for this information.  I didn't realize that there was a 'ladies
auxiliary' kind of newsgroup.

As for 'Girls !!!!!!!!', all I can say is, "get a life!!!!", doctor doctor.

Joe Szalai

>if swimming, athletics tennis are and skiing are *not* mainstream sports, then
>what are? the first two and the last form the core of the summer olympics
>and the last the winter olympics.
>
>but whatever, i am not aware of "no country's being unable to touch the
>hungarians" in any of these sports in the glorious days before 1956.
>refresh my memory.

>d.a

        The operative would in what I sad was "almost" as in "almost any sport"
.
 Hungary
 was hopeless at Rugby because they have never had a team. Has Hungary
ever had a team in grass hockey, skiing...... O.K. to, make you happy, almost
any sport Hungary participated in before 1956 (and to some degree after) they
won; or at least were very successful. Better?

        And the fact that I never heard of Boros before his death doesn`t
make him any less a great player - I don`t follow golf; yawn!!! And no, it
does make my statement null and void because I don`t think golf was played
in Hungary before a couple of years ago(?)


        And about your little extract from the dictionary - we English speak
the Queen`s language; some of you Australians neither do or want to apparently.
Any, that was a sly joke; not to be taken seriously. But obviously you seem
to be blind to such things at the moment. Is this some kind of a vendeter?
Sport used to be anything that people used to as a pastime in a competitive
nature. But in the 1990`s a sport is something you can flog to the masses at
a high price to make huge sums of money - i.e. money for nothing.

Karcsi

>The economic system is responsible to pressurise companies
>to make a profit to pay shareholders more and more, and to pay
>for the expenses of competition, whether they want it or
>not. You cannot be a benevolent capitalist, because you
>and up being a bankrupt capitalist. As simple as that...
>Eva Durant

        Eva,  If (and I agree) the economic system, capitalism, pressures
companies to make the best economic and market decisions, doesn't it seem
that the system then would promote true gender equality?  By your argument
the most economically efficient person, man or woman, would win out.  The
problem, as I see it, doesn't lie with the economic system.  Female
subordination seems to be universally present to one extent or another in
all economic systems.

        Basically, you can't blame the system for a social ill that
predated the system by centuries.  If you do, you look for solutions in the
wrong place.  Manipulation of the system through taxation or other means
can help to solve this problem,  but it isn't the causal factor.

Regards,

Doug Hormann

Dear Eva,

I have to agree with you, the capitalism is far from being perfect. One
can pinpoint lots of weaknesses and mistakes in this system. Also it is
reasonable to assume that capitalism will (or should) be followed by
some new system (at least if we believe in the future of the mankind :-)).
Up to this point it is clear what you say. Also, you can say true socialism/
communism has never existed on this planet, yet, the 'communist bloc' was
something different. That is a nice belief, not more. However let me ask
again those questions that you forgot (or did not want) to answer on the
*Forum*. What will prevent this future socialist/communist system to
reproduce those weaknesses shown by the 'existing socialism'? For example:

i, If there is no market economy, than there should be some kind of
   planned production, economy. How can someone predict the needs of
   a society or the behaviour of an economical system with a considerable
   error? This is an almost impossible task, as far as I know.

ii, How can the flexibility of a state or 'society' owned company can be
    maintained, and enhanced burocracy can be avoided. It is a well known
    fact that state owned companies were burocratic, rigid and produced
    rather deficit than sufficit and not only in the former socialist
    countries.

iii, How can the transition from capitalism to socialism/communism be
     done democratically. Can you ask Bill Gates to give his empire
     to the society? And how the repolarization (in economical sense)
     can be prevented democratically?

iIV, This kind of socialist/communist sociaties requires that peoples
     understand/acknowledge the global interest of the society. Very
     few 'bad guys' (especially in high position) is enough to poisson
     and eventually destroy such a system. How can this be prevented?

If you cannot give a reasonable answer to any of the above questions,
your future society either won't differ from the 'existing socialism',
or not more than a dream.

Janos

>Dear Eva,

>You cannot look at communism, as it did not exist as
>Marx/Engels/etc describe it, as the economic and conscious
>conditions did not exist for its success. Which no way means,
>that if the economic base is 100 times more developed, and
>the people have the means (literacy/i.t.) to take part actively
>in a democracy, it would not solve all the problems, capitalism
>can't for the last 100 years.  Do you say, there cannot be, and we
>should not look for alternatives to a system, which doesn't
>work for the vast majority of mankind, not even for the majority
>in the "best" places?

        I could as well ask you this.  If all you can do is point to a
utopian system that exists only in the minds of its admirers and has never
worked in real life, i. e. socialism, then your argument is truly built on
a foundation of sand.

        As far as arguing that capitalism does not prevent totalitarianism,
I agree wholeheartedly.  In fact, I don't recall ever arguing it any other
way.  As I've previously stated, apitalism is not and never has been a
political system.  It is an economic one that in the many countried exists
side by side with democracies, constitutional monarchies and every
political system conceivable.

Regards,



Doug Hormann

In article >, Eva Durant
> writes:

>I wonder, who's been dogmatic here. I see a democratic socialist
> system as a solution to all the problems existing in
>capitalism (which don't seem to matter to E.B. ever).
>But if someone would convince me, that capitalism can solve
>all its problems and provide a safe future, than hey, I would
>be happy not to worry about the possible viciousness of the next
>revolutions...
>
>

Good thing there's no danger of any literate society ever choosing Comrade
Durant's shining path. I don't mind Joe Szalai's iconoclasm because he's
right about one thing in particular -- there are more critical approaches
to laissez-faire capitalism than just Marxism. I don't think Pope John
Paul II, for instance, could be counted among the ranks of uncritical
worshippers of capitalism. And I'm sure Joe would have a conniption at the
very thought of being lumped into the same category with the Pontiff.

Durant, however, is simply waiting for what ain't gonna happen. The
current fetish for uncritical worship of the free market in the U.S. and
Western Europe will get much-needed critical reappraisal from the man and
woman on the street once they are reminded of its excesses. No one in
their right mind, however, will ever again trust their government, economy
or society to hack university Marxism.
Sam Stowe

Hi Doug:

The Expo has been cancelled to my knowledge.  More on EMail to you.

Regards

Doug Hormann > wrote:
>        I'm planning a trip to Hungary this summer.  I've just learned that
>Budapest is hosting a World Expo in 1996 and am wondering what the dates
>for it are.  I'm concerned that Budapest might be a bit crowded (read
>expensive) during the Expo.  Also, we're hoping to get out of the city and
>away from the tourist traps for at least a week.  I wrote the Hungarian
>tourist bureau, but haven't received a reply.  We're hoping to see the real
>Hungary.  Any suggestions or advice would be welcome.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Doug Hormann

Hi Doug:
Answered u once quickly, and it disappeared.  We'll try again.
The Exp '96 in Hungarian is cancelled over a year go to my knowledge.
More on you Email.  Hope this works,  I am pretty new at this!
Regards
Aniko

Doug Hormann > wrote:
>        I'm planning a trip to Hungary this summer.  I've just learned that
>Budapest is hosting a World Expo in 1996 and am wondering what the dates
>for it are.  I'm concerned that Budapest might be a bit crowded (read
>expensive) during the Expo.  Also, we're hoping to get out of the city and
>away from the tourist traps for at least a week.  I wrote the Hungarian
>tourist bureau, but haven't received a reply.  We're hoping to see the real
>Hungary.  Any suggestions or advice would be welcome.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Doug Hormann

Dr^2 wrote:

>   Hungarian Feminism ========> SZALON
>   I guess the Hungary is not a proper media for it.

Aspects of Hungarian culture, politics, history, etc. are the appropriate
topics of the Hungary list.  Hence, Hungary, the list, is a perfectly proper
medium for a discussion on feminism vis-a-vis Hungary, the country.

>   Szalon was created strickly for this !!!

Strictly for discussing feminism in Hungary ?
Or perhaps I missed something in the translation ?

But if you find the topic irritating, no worries mate, just do not read
the articles.

George Antony

> Felado :  [Canada]
> Temakor: Re: Good vs. better ( 71 sor )
>
> How do Hungarian men deserve to be treated?  Are you saying that Hungarian
> men don't deserve to be criticized?
No, I'm not saying that. To the extent (always very limited) that we can
indulge in judging a whole group, Hungarian men deserve quite a bit of
criticism in regards to how they treat (Hungarian) women.

> Because of language limitations I don't read FORUM, yet I've drawn most of
> the same conclusions as Eva Balogh.  How could that be?  Is there a form of
> newsgroup osmosis happening?  Should I be concerned?
There is a certain amount of newsgroup osmosis, with some people
posting regularly to both groups. Should you be concerned? I don't know.

> I'm just itching for a good spanking.
Gotta find someone else, bondage appeals to me more than discipline.

> >To lend you a hand, here's a statement you must violently
> >disagree with: equal pay for equal work is wrong.
> Oh Andras!  Foreplay and dirty talk.  You surprise me!
Are you familiar with the Hungarian cultural icon Mo1ricka?  A regular
character in Hungarian jokes, Mo1ricka is a schoolboy with an
absolutely one-track mind...

> Your grasp of economic necessity is
> stronger than your grasp of social equality.
Indeed. Economic necessity is part of the real world, social equality
is part of several incompatible ideology packages ranging from Christianity
to Communism.

> However I'm worried that you'll wreck your knees genuflecting in front
> of the high alter of economic reality.
That's OK. Let me do the worrying about my knees, and I'll let you do
the worrying about social equality. Division of labor, makes it happen.

> >I take pay equality to be one the central issues of feminism. On most
> >other issues, such as according equal dignity to females and males,
> >women's control over their reproductive organs etc. the feminist position
> >is obviously right, and no discussion is necessary as far as I can see.
>
> You're setting me up for the grand finale, aren't you?
No, I was just trying to dispose of some of the issues. But feel free to
pick a fight even if we happen to agree...

> >But to discuss the pay equality question, we need to first establish
> >some common ground.
>
> In other words, you, like so many other men, want to control the agenda.  I
To discuss any question we need some common ground. The search for such
does not constitute an attempt to control the agenda.

> have no doubt that you know that whoever controls the agenda, controls the
> discussion, controls the result.
Is that true? As many meetings ending in `revolt' have shown, the
party controlling the agenda is far from having assured the outcome.
More importantly, controlling the agenda is possible only in those
situations where one party outranks the other and has the power to
stop him/her from saying what s/he wants to say. In this sense,
perhaps the listowner can excercise some control but I sure can't. You
can say whatever you want, including (but not limited to) >>your
favorite stuff here<<

> If you were a woman you may be more inclined to see equal pay for equal work
> as a moral imperative.  But because you're a man, living in North America,
> and privilaged by world standards, you see social issues as fodder for a
> philosophical debate.  And the debate will allow you to come across as an
> intelligent, informed, almost liberal thinker, without your status ever
> being seriously threatened.  Sleep well!
OK, so I don't see equal pay for equal work as a moral imperative, and
I sleep well. I also don't see this debate (or any e-mail debate)
threatening my status as a privilaged man living in North America, you
are right.  Further, you are quite right that I see social issues (all
social issues including the ones that put me in on the disadvantaged
side) as fodder for a philosophical debate. You, being part of the
mighty revolutionary avant-garde fighting for women's rights, will of
course want to change the word, rather than understand it. Spend your
sleepless vigil well!

Andra1s Kornai

Well, this is the 3rd and last attempt.  Either the editor is having
some fun with me, or I am totally doing doing this backwards.

The expo is cancelled as far as I know for over a year.  More on your
Email.
Regards,
Aniko

Doug Hormann > wrote:
>        I'm planning a trip to Hungary this summer.  I've just learned that
>Budapest is hosting a World Expo in 1996 and am wondering what the dates
>for it are.  I'm concerned that Budapest might be a bit crowded (read
>expensive) during the Expo.  Also, we're hoping to get out of the city and
>away from the tourist traps for at least a week.  I wrote the Hungarian
>tourist bureau, but haven't received a reply.  We're hoping to see the real
>Hungary.  Any suggestions or advice would be welcome.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Doug Hormann

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