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1 ISFA News : NEW Soccer Lists, IRC Channels, Newsgroups (mind)  96 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Personal Belongings (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
3 Hungarian broadcast information FAQ (mind)  124 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Karakan gyerek a Kristof - karakanok a lengyelek is (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
5 Visit Me (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Deng Xiaoping (mind)  54 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Karakan gyerek a Kristof - karakanok a lengyelek is (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
8 Ez nem letezik! Megint egget ertek Gusztavval! (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
9 LE STUDIP PERSON! was: LE HUNS OR LE MONGOLS ? (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
10 FEL MAGYARS Was: LE HUNS OR LE MONGOLS ? (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Karakan gyerek a Kristof - karakanok a lengyelek is (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Karakan gyerek a Kristof - karakanok a lengyelek is (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
13 Central Europe (mind)  59 sor     (cikkei)
14 SecGen NATO s Speech at the RIIA (mind)  530 sor     (cikkei)

+ - ISFA News : NEW Soccer Lists, IRC Channels, Newsgroups (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hi : since last Wednesday we have quite a few NEW Lists, IRC Channels, 
Newsgroups and specially a France 98 CONMEBOL Homepage (in Spanish) done by 
Nutrino, an experienced HTML author from Chile, and ^Saturn's ArseNet Pages. 
^Saturn is an ISFA Chanop plus he is also #soccer and Live Events Admin at 
ISFAnet. You can access any of these pages from : 


Here they are :

Club Homepage - Arsenal's ArseNet 
Contest - ISFA Logo Contest Homepage
IRC #isc (International - in English) 
IRC #viking (Norway) 
IRC Calendar - #arsenal (England - ISFAnet) 
IRC Calendar - #R.Madrid (Spain - ISFAnet)
IRC Calendar - #soccer (International - ISFAnet) 
IRC Calendar - #viking (Norway)
IRC - ISFAnet Homepage 
Mailing List - AGF (Denmark)
Mailing List - Brondby (Denmark)
Mailing List - Darlington (England)
Mailing List - FC Porto (Portugal) 
Mailing List - Paulistao 97 (Brazil)
Mailing List - Portstmouth (England)
Mailing List - Real Madrid (Spain)
Mailing List - UD Salamanca (Spain) 
Mailing List - Viking (Norway) 
News & Results - Francia 98 - CONMEBOL 
Newsgroup - isfa.soccer.brazil 
Newsgroup - isfa.soccer.fiorentina 
Newsgroup - isfa.soccer.holland 
Newsgroup - isfa.soccer.ipswich 
Newsgroup - isfa.soccer.metrostars 
Newsgroup - isfa.soccer.youthsoccer 


You can participate in the Prediction Leagues in Spanish or English wich you 
find through our Fun and Games Page at :


There are prizes to be won which are outlined there as well, and which include 
a Total Soccer Package for the Monthly Winner. To learn more about the Total 
Soccer Programme go to :



In the last few days there were problems in accessing ISFA's FTP Server through
the Web. This has now been fixed thanks to the Program Author's quick  answer 
to my querie about the problem. So if you had problems getting in please go to 


and download as many pics, videos and sounds as your Hard Drive can handle. :-)


every saturday mabbs, our Kiwi IRC Admin, will be giving Live updates of the 
Premier League games, as an addition to the Live games we have had this past 
w/end, like Alianza Lima vs Sports Boys (Peru), Oviedo vs Celta (Spain), Aston 
Villa vs Liverpool, Everton vs Arsenal (both from England.

We will be having more and more Live Coms as our Channels get organized, and 
whenever there is Games on just drop by to see if we have the Live Coms as 
sometimes it is done un-announced and on the spur of the moment. Also we will 
be adding Live Results from other leagues in the future. 

If YOU are interested in doing Live Coms or Live Score Updates at ISFAnet 
please contact : 

and let us know what you would like to do at ISFAnet.

To keep up with ISFAnet happenings go to the ISFAnet Homepage at :


Cheers !

ISFA Administrator
Winning is a state of mind
+ - Re: Personal Belongings (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, 
>That's the title of a great film documentary I've just seen.  It was
>created by Steve Bognar about his father, Bela Bognar, a 1956 refugee,
>somewhere in the US Midwest.  Bela was a '56 freedom fighter and the
>film recounts his life story in a very personal way.  Some of you from
>the Midwest might have even met him because according to the
>documentary, he is very active in Hungarian cultural events and may be
>fairly well known.  In either case, I highly recommend seeing this 
>winning film to all of you interested in Hungarian affairs.
>Joe Pannon
 I agree. An organization that I belong to called, AAYH (American 
Association of Young Hungarians) presented the film at its Annual 
convention in Chicago.  It was a success.  We are currently entering a 
petition to present the film in the Art Institute's Film Center.  

I saw Steve Bognar, the filmmaker, at another conference, and he is not 
very involved in Hungarian associations.  From the film you can observe, 
that although he believes he is neither Hungarian, nor Dutch (mother's 
ethnicity), and claims that he is American, the Hungarian heritage and 
culture is correctly represented. 

Teri Bicok
+ - Hungarian broadcast information FAQ (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Archive-name: hungarian/broadcast
Soc-culture-magyar-archive-name: broadcast
Last-modified: 1996/06/29
Version: 0.82
Posting-Frequency: every twenty days


 Many thanks go to Andy Vadasz and Peter Soltesz, who compiled much of
the information shown here. This file is being maintained at the
archive <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/HU-broadcast.txt>;. A similar
compendium is also available from the HAL archives
with more related material under <http://mineral.umd.edu/hir/Entertainment/>;.

 The programme by the Radio Petofi is available real-time simulcast via
the Internet (the first such national broadcast according to them):
<http://www.petofi.enet.hu/reala.html>; (note that this adress is at
'enet.hu', signifying E-NET, which is distinct from 'eunet.hu' where
some other resources are to be found). That page has all the
information needed to get the sofware handling the 'realaudio' format,
or one can go straight to the source at <http://www.realaudio.com>;.

 Realaudio format recorded broadcast segments for some HungarianRadio
programmes are available thru <http://www.wrn.org/stations/hungary.html>;. 
The homepage for Radio Budapest (the external service of Hungarian
Radio) is at <http://www.eunet.hu/radio/>; - they have a lot of textual
information, including schedules and frequency tables for worldwide

 Computer-readable Hungarian language broadcast material from the Voice
of America is found under <http://www.voa.gov/programs/audio/>;; they
have other computer audio file formats for download beside realaudio as

 Here is a listing of Hungarian language broadcasts (as of 28 May
1996), collected by Peter Soltesz <mailto:>.
Note that the Hungarian language broadcast of the Radio Free Europe
(which was shown in the original version I posted) has been
discontinued sometime in '95! Also, the Voice of America beam is
transmitted from outside America and can't be received there (despite
the earlier listing showing them with their nominal Washington, D.C.
location). However their Web server makes computer-readable recordings
available, as shown in the paragraph above.  I dropped the VOA entries
from here - for the full schedules see
<gopher://gopher.voa.gov/00/voa-sked/hungarian-pgms> and for all the
frequencies <gopher://gopher.voa.gov/00/voa-sked/langs-and-freqs>
(these files can be accessed thru <http://www.voa.gov>; as well as from

<<< Text version of database file follows: >>>
  ID, Type, FREQ, City, ST, PROG, DAY, Time, Address, Tel, Fax 
 KTYM , AM ,, INGLEWOOD , CA ,1,,,,,
 WVOF , FM ,, FAIRFIELD , CT ,2,,,,,
 WNDU , AM ,, SOUTH BEND , IN ,1,,,,,
 WSBT , AM ,, SOUTH BEND , IN ,1,,,,,
 WRSU , FM ,, NEW BRUNSWICK , NJ ,1,,,,,
 WCSB , FM ,, CLEVELAND , OH ,1,,,,,
 WKTX , AM ,, CORTLAND , OH ,12,,,,,
 WKTL , FM ,, STRUTHERS , OH ,1,,,,,
 WIBF , FM ,, JENKINTOWN , PA ,1,,,,,
 WMZK , AM , 680 , DETROIT , MI ,1, FRI , 2100-2200 ,,,
 WNYE , TV , 25 , NEW YORK , NY ,0.5, SAT , 1500-1530 ,,,
 TCI , CABLE ,, WESTCHESTER County , NY ,,,,,,
      , AM , 1380 , NEW YORK , NY ,1, SUN , 1200-1300 ,,,
 WQRP , FM ,, DAYTON , OH ,3, SUN , 0900-1200 ,,,
 WNVC , TV , 56 , FALLS CHURCH , VA ,0.5, SAT , 0800-0830 ,, 1-703-698-9682 ,
 CKJS , AM , 810 , WINNIPEG, MANITOBA , CN ,0.5, SAT , 2000-2030 ,, 1-204-477-1
221 ,
      , FM , 105.9 , NEW YORK , NY ,2, SUN , 1200-1400 ,,,
      , SW , 25 m ,, PA ,0.25, TH , 1645-1700 ,,,
 TELSTAR , SAT , 22 ,, NA ,,,,,,
 GALAXY-4 , SAT , 23 ,, NA ,0.5, M-F , 1930-200 ,,,
 GALAXY-4 , SAT , 23 ,, NA ,0.5, SAT , 1730-1800 ,,,
 ASC-1 , SAT , 23 ,, NA ,0,,,,,
 VATICANA , SW ,,, IT ,0,,,,,
 CBN , SAT ,,, NA ,0,,,,,
 CBC , SW ,, TORONTO , CD ,,,,,,
 BBC , SW ,, LONDON , UK ,,,,,,
     , SW , 3250 , BIRMINGHAM , AL ,1, D , 0700-0755 ,,,
          ,, 830 , CLEVELAND , OH ,,,,,,
 DEUTSCHE W , SW ,,, GE ,0,,,,,
 WCPN , FM , 90.3 , CLEVELAND , OH ,1,,,,,

<<< end of database listing >>>

 Andy Vadasz <mailto:> posted the following:
+In a May 14 message, I reported (in part):
+> their current 9870 kHz will change to 9840 kHz starting May.21. Not clear
+>whether the change is for the entire 3 hour transmission (including
+>Hungarian and English language programs). 
+More recently the new arrangement has been posted on the "Radio Budapest"
+webpage: http://www.eunet.hu/radio/   To summarize. the North America beam
+is broadcast on 9840 and 11870 kHz with the following breakdown
+Starting time (UTC)     Language    Beam orientation
+00:00                   Hungarian    N.America East
+01:00                   English      N.America East
+01:30                   Hungarian    N.America West
+02:30                   English      N.America West
+In my area (Northern Virginia) the first two segments have been fair to good
+on 9840 kHz.

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!

Version: 2.6.2

+ - Re: Karakan gyerek a Kristof - karakanok a lengyelek is (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> Jo, jo, Pista batyam, de azert nem kene okvetlenul atvinned az ideirt
> cikkeket a HIX-re.  Legalabbis az enyemet nem, mivel megfogadtam, hogy
> oda tobbe nem irok.

Bocsass meg Jozsi.  Tobbet nem viszem at az irasodat.  Nem tudom miert nem
irsz a FORUM-on.  Ott legalabb minden nezet kepviselve van.  Tipikus magyar
semmibe-se-ertunk-eggyet.  En ezt szeretem.   Nem ugy mint az angol nyelvu
lista vilag polgarai akik nem turnek el egy magyar gondolatot se.

+ - Visit Me (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Thanks for reading this mail.

Visit my new homepage at http://sunflower.singnet.com.sg/~s7508537
Remember to sign my guestbook OK? *smile*

+ - Re: Deng Xiaoping (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Laszlo Horvath .
stanford.edu> writes:

>George Kovacs wrote:
>> >> Laszlo Horvath > writes:
>> >In defense of the Poetician:
>> >school-master George K. However, I believe that GK just
>> >wanted to be "contrary" and that's not his true sentiment.
>> //Now, that's a hotblooded Hungarian -or Shakespeare's Hotspur! By golly
>George! I like your temper. But read those lines over 
>(bravado, by the way, is pretended courage or feigned confidence), his 
>bravado agrees with me and let us piss on graves of human sacred cows.
>Wally seems to have as much mettle as any body.
>Sincerely, Laszlo

Oh Gentle Men,
allow me;  piss or not to piss, that is not the question here. George, I believ
it is mostly a "figure of speach". What is at issue here (and I strongly agree
with Laszlo's statement) is human sacred cows.

Faludy Gyorgy irt egy "odat" Sztalin hetvenedik szuletesnapjara 1949-ben, itt
idezek egy par szakot:
Halalodat olyan vadul kivanom
s hivom, hogy szinte beleszkadok.
S latlak dacsadban vagy kremli szobadon,
ahogy setalgatsz fel-le magad ott.

Hirtelen felbuksz - szivszelhudest kaptal -
s magaddal rantasz asztalt, huzatott.
Vagy majad velem latni s rajta rakot.
Egy ercsomon tenyeszik a fekely.
S abrandozom, hogy lathatatlan lettem,
futok - repitsen hajo, gyorsvonat - :
haloszobad homalyan erlek tetten
a atragom a torkodat.

Milliok vannak igy. Ma sem kivanok
mast, mint hogy halj meg, ki e fold atka vagy
a alvadt vertombokbol epult Bizancod
ne eljen tul, o Konstantin, te Nagy.

>>So, three cheers for the pissers. 
I second the motion.

+ - Re: Karakan gyerek a Kristof - karakanok a lengyelek is (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On 27 Feb 1997 00:59:25 GMT, Istvan Lippai > wrot
>Ez mar haladas!  Tudtam en, hogy ezek a listak csak jok valamire.
>Emlekszem, hogy amikor Purdue-n bulit csinaltunk, mindeg meghivtuk
>latin-amerikai lanyokat.

Jo, jo, Pista batyam, de azert nem kene okvetlenul atvinned az ideirt
cikkeket a HIX-re.  Legalabbis az enyemet nem, mivel megfogadtam, hogy
oda tobbe nem irok.

REMINDER: Please correct my e-mail address in any personal reply by
removing the "antiSPAM." part from it.  I have altered the address
in the hope of defeating address grabbing SPAM software.  Thanks, JP
+ - Ez nem letezik! Megint egget ertek Gusztavval! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Gustav Horvath > wrote 
> It's a great list man!
Igy van!
> Too bad that you did not have the guts to tell us your name.
> All of that you write, we are very proud about !
De meg hogy!

Csak azt nem ertem, hogy miert valaszoltok neki.  A mocsok nem targyalni
hanem csak provokalni akart.

+ - LE STUDIP PERSON! was: LE HUNS OR LE MONGOLS ? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

YOU BLOCKHEAD!  (Final Version)
spread your poisonous haze somewhere else, or better yet . . . 
go and play in the middle of the autobahn. 

Most sincerely, Marina

RT765 > wrote in article
> ARE HUNGARIANS MONGOLS? (Revised Version)Version 3
+ - FEL MAGYARS Was: LE HUNS OR LE MONGOLS ? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >  (Gustav 
Horvath) writes:
>> "Five groups of Mongols have made themselves famous in Europe:The Huns
>> with their mighty chief Attila,the Magyars,The Turks or Osmanli,the Mongol
>> invaders of Russia..."

>It's a great list man!

Except for the fact that Magyars are not  Mongols. It's about the 8th 
time it comes up. BORING!
+ - Re: Karakan gyerek a Kristof - karakanok a lengyelek is (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On 27 Feb 1997 17:01:33 GMT, Istvan Lippai > wrot
>Kerdeztuk tole, hogy melyik varos a legszebb a vilagon.  Azt mondta, nem
>mondja akkor nevetni fogunk.  Mondtuk, hogy megis mondja meg.  Vegre
>kibokte, hogy Budapest a vilag legszebb varosa.  Milyen igaza volt az

Nohat!  Micsoda nacionalista es kirekeszto duma ez?  Nem csoda, hogy
annyira magadra haragitottad azt a tolerans tarsasagot ott azon a masik
listan! ;-)

Joe Pannon
REMINDER: Please correct my e-mail address in any personal reply by
removing the "antiSPAM." part from it.  I have altered the address
in the hope of defeating address grabbing SPAM software.  Thanks, JP
+ - Re: Karakan gyerek a Kristof - karakanok a lengyelek is (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Thu, 27 Feb 1997 15:30:25 GMT, George Kovacs 
.edu> wrote:
>Mikor lathatjuk az osszehasonlito elemzes bizonyitekaul szolgalo 
>fenykepsorozatot?  ;->

Jo kerdes, azonban attol felek azzal valahogy ugy jartam, mint a
mindenkepen levegoben maradni akaro lufis nelkulozheto targyai az
utolso homokzsak kidobasa utan: ki lettek "rekesztve".  Csak az en
esetemben nem a levegoben, hanem valahol az Adria kek vizeben.
Tehat marad egyszeruen a szavam.  Vagy csak nem azt akarod mondani, hogy
az nem eleg? ;-)

Joe Pannon
REMINDER: Please correct my e-mail address in any personal reply by
removing the "antiSPAM." part from it.  I have altered the address
in the hope of defeating address grabbing SPAM software.  Thanks, JP
+ - Central Europe (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Daily & business news, travel guide, living, statistics and much more from
Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary and Slovenia at:



Hungary and Slovakia Fight Dam Dispute in Court 

BUDAPEST -- Hungary and Slovakia prepare to do battle today in the Hague
International Court to resolve a long-running dispute over how Slovakia's
Gabcikovo dam project has diverted the river Danube, which forms the border
between the two countries. more...

Czech Ultra Right Party Leader Charged after Alleged Racist Comments about

PRAGUE -- Czech police have detained and charged ultra-right Republican
party head Miroslav Sladek (left) with inciting racial hatred. Their move
came the day after fellow deputies voted to strip him of his parliamentary
immunity from prosecution following strong allegations that he had made
extreme anti-German comments. more...

Other Headlines

•Bulgarian President Stoyanov Pushes for Reform on Czech Visit
•Panic Withdrawals at Hungary's Postabank 
•Poland's Farming Minister Says He Will Resign 
•First Software Piracy Sentence Issued by Polish Court 
•Euro-Atlantic Integration Key Aim for New Slovenian Government 
•Bombing Wave on the Wane - Hungary Interior Minister 
•Slovak Coalition Party Warns against Entry into NATO 
•Poles Believe Foreign Agents have Penetrated their Country 
•Gunmen Rob Latvian Coach, Kill Tourist in Poland 
•Czech Model Herzigova Sizzles on Milan Catwalk 
•Tennis: Hingis Enjoys Successful Homecoming In Slovakia 
•Tennis: Czechs Capitalize on German Injuries 
•Ice Hockey: Czech Coach Quits After Rift with Players 
•Soccer: Slovak First Division Results and Standings 

News on the web today

They call it 'NATO Lite'. Read how newly released U.S. papers indicate that
Central European countries won't quite get the full product when it comes
to NATO expansion. Also in today's range of recommended Web reports are
details of a new saliva test backed by a Czech gynecologist which can help
with family planning. Other reports tell of topics such as a Polish bid to
relieve Bulgarian bread shortages and the formation of a new Slovenian

Complete list of articles 

News from Yugoslavia 

Excerpts for Friday Feb. 28, 1997
Keep up to date with what is going on in Serbia, Macedonia, Kosovo,
Montenegro and Albania with our daily excerpts from Yugoslavia Today. 
Today's excerpts
+ - SecGen NATO s Speech at the RIIA (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In the Mar.4-97 speech by the General Secretary of NATO made at the
Royal Institute of International Affairs (also know as the Chatham
House) below, there is a reference to Ukraine, and announcement that
NATO will be opening an office in "Kyev." (In time, I believe, that NATO
will learn how to spell Kyiv). The excerpt from his speech is:

"The emergence of new democratic states is a
feature of the new security order.  Their ability to
survive and flourish as independent states is a key test
for all of the institutions and individual nations
          In this sense, Ukraine occupies a crucial
place in Europe.  An independent, stable and democratic
Ukraine is of strategic importance for the development
of Europe as a whole.  We are developing a distinct and
effective relationship between NATO and Ukraine, to
strengthen Ukraine s participation in securing the
stability of Europe.  We are working with the Ukrainian
authorities to formalise this new security relationship
by the time of the Madrid Summit.  In the meantime, with
the active support of the Ukrainian government, NATO is
about to establish an information office in Kyev.  It is
practical initiatives like this, spreading the message
about the new NATO, that turn rhetoric into reality." 

In the speech, there are references to Davos and Chatham House. By way
of background, many interesting plans are decided at events like the
annual economic conferences at Davos, Switzerland. For example, it
wasn't that long ago that a plan to have Boris Yeltsin elected as
President of Russia was hatched at Davos, ie. $30million was allocated
to spend on Yeltsin's advertising campaign, Lebed was to get $3million
and run as a candidate to take votes away from Zyuganov, thus ensuring
Yeltsin's win. I believe this was the first year that President Kuchma

This year the Davos conference also focussed its attention on the
world's financial crisis, according to William Engdahl's article "World
financial elites focus on systemic crisis in Davos" from the 21Feb97
edition of the Executive Intelligence Review. He says:

"A most revealing indicator of how insiders view the imminence of a
systemic financial crisis, is the degree with which the subject
preoccupied debate at the World Economic Forum held in Davos,
Switzerland. The talks, held this year on Jan.31-Feb.4, are organized to
bring together once each year the leading figures in international
banking, central banking, multinational corporations, and government,
for informal high-level exchanges of views on major issues of concern.

"This year's talks were in stark contrast to those of the previous
several years. Debates ranged from, 'Do we need to worry about financial
system fragility?' to whether the Japanese banking crisis could erupt
into a global crisis; the dangers in the present moves toward the
European Monetary Union (EMU) amid soaring unemployment, and the danger
of an outbreak of a new monetary crisis; or, whether there is risk of a
breakdown in the global interbank payments system.

"But what made the talks more striking, was the fact that they took
place against a backdrop of alleged global economic growth, low
inflation, and record highs in major stock markets around the world. The
contrast between what the ordinary citizen is being told, i.e. 'The
economy is all rosy,' with what senior financial circles at Davos
expressed, could not have been more stark.

"What is the World Economic Forum?

"The Davos World Economic Forum was established in 1971, by a Swiss
businessman, Klaus Schwab. Schwab's wordview was shaped during the 1960s
as a student at the Harvard seminars of Henry Kissinger [who is also a
member of the American Ukrainian Advisory Committee,SL], who is a Davos
regular. Schwab's model for the Davos gathering,he acknowledges, came
from attending meetings of the secretive Bilderberg Group [past and
present members of the American Ukrainian Advisory Committee who are
also Bildebergers include Henry Kissinger, George Soros and Dwayne
Andreas,SL]. Schwab developed the format of a highly expensive (each
delegate must pay $16-20,000 to attend), elite meeting in the Swiss
Alps, which would focus on the major concerns of the global
establishment in banking, government, and business. Well more than 1,000
delegates and speakers meet over several days each year in public
sessions, but more importantly, in informal private talks. Here, policy
and deals with strategic importance are shaped. Who is invited and who
not, is taken as a sign of political 'acceptance' by this globalist

"Among this year's participants were financial speculator George Soros
[also a member of the American Ukrainian Advisory Committee,SL]; heads
of the largest European, Japanese, and American international banks;
finance ministers from most Organization for Economic Cooperation and
Development (OECD) member countries; as well as heads of central banks,
senior International Monetary Fund (IMF) officials, and others. In
short, the people who allegedly know the true state of world financial
and monetary developments. And, they're preoccupied with the likelihood
of imminent systemic crisis as never before.

Stefan Lemieszewski

Subject: Speech by the SecGen at the Royal Institute of International
Date:  Tue, 4 Mar 1997 14:48:05 PST

                CHATHAM HOUSE, LONDON
                      4 MARCH  1997
                     4 FEVRIER 1997
              Speech by the Secretary General
     at the Royal Institute of International Affairs,    
                 Chatham House, London,
                      4th March 1997

          I was interested to see a piece in the
Economist a few weeks ago about the differences between 
Chatham House Man  and  Davos Man .  I was at Davos a
few weeks ago along with the distinguished director of
this Institute.  I am now at Chatham House.  I am not
sure where that puts me on the evolutionary ladder, but
I can assure you that I still feel myself to be part of
the same species as everyone here present and I am very
glad and honoured to be with you today.  

          The debate was whether  Chatham House Man ,
held to epitomize the world of traditional diplomacy,
was being superseded by  Davos Man , representing the
world of business.  It is now the businessmen of the
world, not the diplomats, according to the Economist,
who are making the world safer.  This point of view is
over-simplistic - it is not that one or the other is
responsible but the two build on each others
achievements in a virtuous circle: economic prosperity
is a function of greater international security, and
vice versa. 
          Today I want to talk to you about NATO s
agenda to the Summit and beyond.  The Yalta conference
set the pattern of European and global history for fifty
years.  The Yalta security order was based on the
unnatural division of Europe.  Its end, in 1989, was a
wonderful moment.  But the period of transition that
followed brought with it new risks of uncertainty,
instability and flux.  A new security order has yet to
be created.  The elements are all there - a transforming
NATO, an integrating European Union and a more effective
OSCE.  But we need now to seize the moment.

          I sense that, in 1997, we are again at a
defining point in history.  Decisions taken now will
reverberate well into the next century.  We have the
unique chance to define the framework for European
security.  A few months ago, in Lisbon, the OSCE took
the crucial decision to construct a model for European
security for the twenty-first century.  In four months
time, the NATO Summit will effectively lay the
cornerstone for that new security model.  
          So, at the July Summit, you can expect a
series of decisions, all with far-reaching implications
for European security as a whole.  In terms of NATO s
organisation, our Summit will not mark the beginning of
a new NATO.  But it will bring together all of the
structural and organisational initiatives that have
transformed the North Atlantic Alliance in recent years.

          The extent to which NATO has already changed
is often underestimated.

          The collective defence of Alliance territory
remains at the heart of NATO, but the Alliance is no
longer organised solely and exclusively for that
purpose.  We also have to be able to cope with regional
crises and conflicts, and we have made great headway in
reducing and restructuring our forces to this end.  But
there is more to do.  At present, we are implementing
the Combined Joint Task Forces concept which will
greatly improve our force projection capability.  And we
are working on the development of a visible, concrete
European defence component.

          The Summit will complete this internal
transformation by deciding the form and the details of a
new and smaller command structure, streamlined for
crisis management and intervention.  There will be far
fewer military Headquarters.  The new structure will
make it easier for NATO to interact with its Partners. 
Also, the European Security and Defence Identity will be
developed within the structure, with Spain and, I hope,
France being fully involved. 

          The result will be a much more versatile NATO. 
We will be able to respond to crises faster and with a
range of options.  As in Bosnia, we would have the
capacity to form a grand coalition for peace with
Partners who have exercised with us under the auspices
of Partnership for Peace.  Or, if circumstances require,
we will have standing arrangements to lend our assets to
the Western European Union for a European-led action.

          Completing NATO s internal adaptation is
therefore of major significance.  It is the
pre-requisite for the new NATO and for its new, wider
role in European security.

          Many observers, however, portray the Summit as
a one-decision meeting.  For them, it will be about
choosing new members only.  This is a distorted
perspective.  NATO s enlargement is not an end in
itself, it is one part of a wider package that is
designed to develop closer relationships with all
countries in the Euro-Atlantic area.  The whole package
is about uniting the whole of the Euro-Atlantic
community around a common security culture.  It is about
consigning concepts like  dividing lines ,  buffer zones 
and  spheres of influence  where they belong: in the
dustbin of history.   

          There are four key component parts of this
package:  an enhanced Partnership for Peace and the
establishment of an Atlantic Partnership Council; the
accession of new members to NATO; a distinctive
arrangement with Ukraine; and a strategic relationship
with Russia.

          Let me take each of the elements in turn.  

          Partnership for Peace demonstrates NATO s
commitment to Europe s wider security.  When launched in
1994, PfP was criticised for being a security placebo. 
One commentator here in the UK referred to it as a 
military kabuki play  - strong on form, weak in content.

          The reality has been very different.  We now
have 27 Partners involved in dialogue and military
co-operation with NATO.  Countries from a wide variety
of security traditions have joined, encompassing almost
every country in Europe, including Russia, and reaching
out as far east as Central Asia.  Neutrality is no bar
to membership, nor to active engagement with the
Alliance -  Austria, Moldova and Turkmenistan, all
countries where neutrality is enshrined in the
constitution, have been members of PfP for years.  And
the most recent member, who joined last December, is

          Partnership for Peace has succeeded because it
responds to a strong need of the Europe of the 1990s. 
It allows countries to participate directly in shaping
the new patterns of a cooperative security order.  But
it does not tie anyone down to commitments they do not
want to assume.  Its openness and flexibility are keys
to its success.  

          At Madrid in July, we will launch an enhanced
form of PfP.  This will dramatically expand the scope
for participation.  Military exercises will cover the
whole spectrum of possible crisis interventions. 
Partners will be involved in planning and preparing for
contingency operations, building on the success of our
common experience in Bosnia.

          There will also be possibilities for closer
political dialogue and consultations.  We already have
the North Atlantic Co-operation Council which, in the
five years of its existence has been a great success,
extending to our Partners the habit of consultation and
co-operation that we have long taken for granted as
Allies.  But we want to go further.  The next stage of
PfP will be developed within the framework of an
Atlantic Partnership Council.  This will provide a
single political framework for all our co-operation
activities.  It will provide the necessary forum where
Allies and Partners can meet and determine our future
co-operation together.

          I visited Moldova and the Caucasian countries
last month.  There, PfP has led directly to proposals
for a peacekeeping battalion.  All four countries I
visited were enthusiastic about the opportunities
offered by PfP and are eager to involve themselves
further, taking advantage of NATO expertise in
everything from the democratic control of the military
to co-operation in science, environment and civil
emergency planning.  Next week I will be visiting
Central Asian Republics, where I shall discuss the
progress and potential of their co-operation programmes
with NATO.

          PfP is more, much more, than just organising
workshops and seminars.  The value of PfP can be seen in
the field in Bosnia.  The practical co- operation in
SFOR expresses better than any number of communiqu‚s or
speeches what NATO is actually achieving through its
co-operation initiatives.  The 16 Allies and 17
Partners, including Russia, are working together every
day under the same rules of engagement and command
structures, in the cause of peace.  The effect is
cumulative.  There is a growing and widespread interest
in moving closer to NATO.  The Summit will greatly
expand the possibilities for doing so. 
          The accession of new members to the Alliance
is another major element of the Summit package.  In
July, we will invite one or more countries to start
accession negotiations.  Our aim is that new members
will join by 1999 - NATO s 50th anniversary year.  The
decision to enlarge NATO was made three years ago, at
the Summit in 1994.  In Alliance circles it has long
been considered and debated.  The process has been
gradual, open and transparent. 

          But only recently has a public debate
seriously got underway.  I need only to read the British
newspapers to see that the debate in this country is as
healthy and vigorous as anywhere. NATO s agenda for
change must be discussed and understood: it is one of
the most portentous developments since the collapse of
the Berlin Wall.  But it seems all too easy for critics
of NATO s policy to forget that enlargement is part of a
broader strategy. I see a great tendency to highlight
the difficulties and speculate about the consequences of
enlarging NATO - but far less attention to the far
greater implications of not doing so.  NATO s
enlargement should not be considered outside the context
of an evolving security architecture.  If we are truly
to create a Europe without dividing lines, then
successful established institutions like NATO and the EU
must offer a real prospect of membership to those who
are legitimately asking to join. 

          Opening up NATO will help solve one of the
perennial sources of instability on this continent. 
Historically, when the security status of Central and
Eastern Europe has been left unclear, the resulting
uncertainty has exerted a strong and dangerously
destabilising influence on the whole of Europe.   

          As Sir Bryan Cartledge pointed out in  The
Times  last week, in Central and Eastern Europe
historical memories of partition and abandonment figure
prominently in contemporary thinking.  It is difficult
to see how this region can develop in hope and
confidence without being anchored to the stable,
established democratic organisations of the West.  To
keep NATO as a closed shop, would be to keep those
countries imprisoned in their past.  It would be to rob
them of one of the best means of moving forward and
sharing in the future peace and prosperity we in the
West are aiming for.  Do we want to deal with the
consequences of leaving these Partners outside?

          Therefore, the opening up of NATO is both a
moral and hard- headed obligation we have towards the
new applicants.  They want to belong to our unique
community, because they share our values, because giving
them a sense of belonging is good for them and for the
wider Europe, and because there is no law of nature that
would confine our Atlantic community forever to the 16
current Allies.

          We want them in because it will add to the
stability of our continent.  Not to enlarge is the 
do-nothing, achieve nothing  option.  It is the option
the Alliance long ago rejected.

          NATO s commitment to accept new members is
already having a positive effect.  With the incentive of
joining the West, many have entrenched democratic
reforms at home and settled longstanding bilateral
disputes abroad.  Hungary, Romania, Slovakia, Poland,
Ukraine, the Baltic States and others have concluded or
are about to conclude agreements settling long
unresolved differences.  Such progress has been made
because the Alliance, at the right time, has given the
signal that it is no longer a closed club.  We must not
draw a line across Europe, dividing it into winners and
losers.  In the new security architecture, there will
only be winners.  We have made it clear that our door is
and will remain open.  As a credible organisation, we
have been taken at our word.  And the credibility of
NATO, both politically and militarily, is the engine of
the Partnership for Peace.

          The cost of NATO s enlargement has recently
been in the press.  Everyone accepts that at a time of
reducing and stringent defence budgets for all NATO
Allies, the additional costs have to be seriously
considered.  But some of the figures that have been
quoted by private think tanks are grossly exaggerated,
and are based on arbitrary and unrealistic assumptions. 
Any assessment of cost depends on the assumptions the
analysts wish to make.  It has to be seen in

          My view is that membership is more about
commitment than cost.  The recent Report to the US
Congress confirms the point.  Applicants will pay their
fair share of common costs, but it will not be an
excessive share.  New members, like NATO s present
members, will have the time and the freedom to meet the 
requirements in a way that they can absorb.  NATO will
provide a solid, reliable framework for the long term
security of the new members - and that means a cheaper,
more cost-effective defence than they would otherwise

          Opening NATO to new members is a good bargain,
a sound investment.  It will maintain the momentum of
transformation and remove the final traces of past
divisions.  It will demonstrate that those countries
which at Yalta had their destinies chosen for them,
will, in the next century, be shaping their own
destinies as free and independent states.

          The emergence of new democratic states is a
feature of the new security order.  Their ability to
survive and flourish as independent states is a key test
for all of the institutions and individual nations
          In this sense, Ukraine occupies a crucial
place in Europe.  An independent, stable and democratic
Ukraine is of strategic importance for the development
of Europe as a whole.  We are developing a distinct and
effective relationship between NATO and Ukraine, to
strengthen Ukraine s participation in securing the
stability of Europe.  We are working with the Ukrainian
authorities to formalise this new security relationship
by the time of the Madrid Summit.  In the meantime, with
the active support of the Ukrainian government, NATO is
about to establish an information office in Kyev.  It is
practical initiatives like this, spreading the message
about the new NATO, that turn rhetoric into reality. 
          Finally, there is Russia.  One persistent
argument used against NATO enlargement is its possible
negative effect on that country.  It is an objection
based on a very narrow view of security in Europe and a
reluctance to abandon the concept of  spheres of
influence .  It assumes that the underlying relationship
with Russia will always be problematic.  A number of
commentators appear to believe that somehow we have to 
choose  between NATO enlargement and Russia.  The
underlying idea seems to be that we can t have both: new
members and a new relationship with Russia.  This is
          Those who believe that NATO has to choose
between enlargement and Russia are approaching Europe
with a mentality that is wholly inappropriate for today
s strategic environment.  Russia still has considerable
problems in understanding the new NATO and its opening
to new members.  

          But it is not inevitable that Russia will
retreat into hostile isolation.  Russia is a great power
with great power interests.  Many of these interests
will suggest close co-operation with NATO.  Russia is a
member of the OSCE and already has close links with the
EU, the Council of Europe and the G7.  It wants and
deserves its full place in Europe.  That is why I
believe that Russia will ultimately come to the
conclusion that a privileged relationship with an
enlarged NATO is far preferable to any other

          NATO and Russia are now engaged in a
discussion which will continue through the months ahead. 
Both sides are genuinely committed to a successful
outcome.  One of our goals is to create a permanent
mechanism of consultation, and possibly, joint action.  

          I would like to see Russia permanently
represented at NATO, ready to make their points and also
to see with their own eyes what NATO is really about. 
We have given assurances on nuclear weapons.  We are
already approaching the adaptation of the CFE Treaty in
a constructive way.  And we have a partnership with
Russia in the Bosnian operation which clearly
corresponds to our common interests.

          I have been talking to the Russians in some
detail over the past few months.  We have exchanged
ideas.  We are about to begin work on the text of an
agreement.  The atmosphere is constructive.  I do not
want to minimise the difficulties, but I believe they
are interested in a partnership with NATO and that we
will conclude one.  The form is not so important.  It is
the content which counts.  There is movement and
momentum in this discussion.  

          What we are willing to conclude with Russia is
of far-reaching strategic importance for the whole of
Europe.  There is no question of  buying Russia off  or
compensating them for enlargement.  Like the enlargement
process itself, the development of our relationship with
Russia is part of a wider transformation of NATO that
will be good for Russia, good for NATO, and good for the
whole of Europe.

          So let me conclude.  We have to recognise how
far the map of European security has changed in a very
few years.  We cannot stand by and wait for the dust to
settle - we must take charge of the process.  There is
no  do nothing  option - there are only  do  options. 
And the option we have chosen is that of a strong and
united NATO, working in a close and productive
partnership with Russia.  A strong NATO as the driving
force behind an Atlantic Partnership Council binding
together the security and democratic structures of all
Partner states from the Atlantic to Eastern Europe and
          That is my vision.  That is the vision that
the 16 governments of the Alliance are seeking to make
reality.  We shall take a major step forward at Madrid. 
And the momentum of change, the momentum of progress,
will continue.

          Europe today faces an opportunity which comes
around only once in a generation.  We must grasp that
opportunity boldly.  We can make the next century safer,
more stable, more peaceful than this one.  NATO s Summit
in July will mark a major milestone in the development
of the new security architecture.  We will complete our
internal transformation.  We will be ready to take our
relationships with Partners to a new level of
co-operation.  We will establish a strategic partnership
with Russia.  We will close the book on Yalta and put
the division of Europe permanently behind us.  We will
end the 20th century in a far better shape than we began

[end of quote]