Kornai wrote:
>According to Braham, interpellations were made in both houses of
>parliament as early as in January, and Bajcsy-Zsilinszky's memorandum
>to Horthy on February 4 1942 specifically names all those responsible
>"including Ba1rdossy, who is accused by B-Zs of not taking the
>necessary precautions in spite of advance warnings" (my English
>translation from the Hungarian edition, pp 178-179).

Well, somebody is wrong on this: either Sulyok or Braham.  Since Sulyok
represented the state against Imredy, I have a hard time to believe that
he would deliberately cover up for Bardossy.  But I let it at that.

>The example is highly relevant, both for similarities and differences.
>Unlike in Mi Lai (I'm not sure of the spelling either), the civil
>administration learned about the fact almost immediately. So Ba1rdossy
>knew, but didn't start proceedings. Ka1llay did.

As I recall, the Mi Lai massacre was not discovered in Washington
immediately, but I am not strong on that.  Can anybody else recall the
details on this?

>This is like the defense offered by Csaba Zolta1ni -- comparison to
>some other evil act. The British government's decision was uniformly
>condemned by all human rights groups all around the world.  And there
>is an absolutely critical difference: the fate of the Vietnamese
>returnees was (and I think continues to be) actively monitored to see
>that they don't get killed or imprisoned. The Ba1rdossy government
>made no effort at monitoring the fate of those expelled.

To my knowledge it was the protests that also stopped those deportations
by the Hungarians after Kamenets-Podolsk.

>You are getting to the core of my problem with Ba1rdossy: it was
>under him, not under the preceding and following governments (up to
>the German occupation) that such atrocities took place.

But again, was it proven that they were done with at least Budapest's
tacit approval, even if not at express orders?  I think not.

>For the most part I'm quite certain that you are right and it was
>overzelous local authorities.  The point is not that Ba1rdossy personally
>ordered them to commit atrocities. The point is that he failed to punish,
>or even to initiate proceedings against, those who were proximally
>responsible for the atrocities.

After mentioning the alleged Putnok deportation to an old Jewish friend
of mine who grew up in a town not far from Putnok, he said he never
heard of the case.  He also confirms that to his knowledge only
non-Hungarian citizen Jews were deported at the time.
I got interested enough in this issue to make it a point on my next trip
to Hungary to visit Putnok and find out from the old folks what really
happened there.  (Besides, it's a pretty region of the country.)

>wind blow over the grass and it's sure to bend that way. Look at the acts
>of the small men in there little spheres of power in that period, and you
>get a pretty good sense of the overall moral direction of the country that
>was imparted by the leaders. Feje1to3l bu3zlik a hal.

Well, Bardossy sure was no Kallay.

Joe Pannon

Regarding Jancsi Czifra's post:

>There's a video distributor out in California called European Video
>Distributors, which has a pretty decent size catalogue of Hungarian movies
>ranging from golden oldies from the 30's to more recent stuff. The quality is
>great, but I don't know off hand the phone # or address,

It is: European Video Distributors
       2402 W. Olive Ave.
       Burbank, CA 91506

Phone: 818-848-5902

Joe Pannon

Eva Durant writes:

>> responsibilities in the world. The United States does.
>>
>> Eva Balogh
>
>Could you please spell out for me  these responsibilities,
>which belong to the USA, and not to the NATO or the UN.
>And the success-rate of past overt and under-cover operations...
>thanks.
>Eva.Durant

US policies, for the most part are same as NATO, when it comes to Europe.
Elsewhere, of course, NATO has no operational interest, thus the US is
different in this respect.  The US and the UN rarely agree in policies and
since the Korean War, when the Soviet ambassador made the bad tactical
mistake of walking out of the Security Council and allowing a vote to take
place, only since 1990 has the US gained UN support for it's policies.

It should be remembered that neither NATO or the UN function as a
"super-government", but rather as an instrument of a collective of nations.
Neither NATO nor the UN maintains a standing military.  Participation in any
mission is a decision of each country, including the US.  NATO does have
certain defensive measures, which are automatically invoked when any NATO
member is attacked.  The Bosnian peacekeeping mission does not fall under that.

If, by chance, President Clinton manages to sell his 20,000 troop mission to
Bosnia, it will be only if he promises to keep it out of UN control, which
has a bad reputation domestically.  NATO command, under an American General
would play somewhat better.  The majority of Americans, according to polls,
would rather stay out of Bosnia and let the Europeans clean up their own mess.


Charlie Vamossy

I am looking for someone in the vancouver area that could and would be willing
to translate a letter in english into hungarian.

Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.

If you can, please respond in email to advoid cluttering up this newsgroup.

Thanks.

Csoori magyar,es magyar erdekeket kepvisel.Szamuzd magad.

Hulye vagy.

I'd like to add, that anti-american cannot be racist,
while anti-semite is nothing else.  Anti-american
is not anti  -american person, but anti -american policies.
(a previous posting declared these two anti-s to be the same.)

Dear fellow-listmembers:

This morning, prompted by Mr. Kiss Janos's most recent "contribution" to
the list, I have reluctantly taken the step of setting the list parameters
so that only subscribers through the LISTSERV at GWU can post to the list.
Should Mr. Kiss wish to subscribe, he may do so after three months have
passed (I will monitor the list of subscribers); but should his posts
remain fundamentally unchanged, he will again be deleted.

I say reluctantly, because this decision will involve me more directly
in controlling access to the list.  I don't want to inhibit the free flow
of thought and argument, and we have all been given examples of several
contributors' talents for sarcasm:  let me just ask once again, please,
try to keep it within certain bounds of decency and rationality.

In the end, in spite of being in fundamental agreement with Eva Balogh's
attitude that the free contest of ideas requires no restrictions, I finally
decided that (as Gabor Fencsik has pointed out) this is not, in fact, a
"free" medium.  This list belongs to me by virtue of its creator and first
listowner, Eric Dahlin, passing the torch on when his university ceased to
be willing to give it a home.  It is based at my university, which is a
private academic institution dedicated to research and teaching (and making
money on real estate!).  My reputation, and that of my university, are
touched by the nature and value of the list traffic--even if in miniscule
ways.  So, neither my university nor I have any interest in serving as a
medium for the kind of racialist, ultra-nationalist shit that spews forth
from .

I don't find Mr. Pellionisz's "self-defense" argument at all convincing as
justification for what Kiss posts.  As for silicon.com, if the posters from
that site wish to subscribe, welcome to them, but as guests in my house,
they will have to maintain again those minimum standards of decency that
I choose to set.

I have always wanted the list to be free-wheeling and to include posters
who have a wide range of views (which I think you would have to say we
have--I would name them all except that by leaving anyone out I might
inadvertently offend).  For those of you who have been reading the list
traffic in other ways, you can still post to this list by subscribing to
the LISTSERV and immediately setting your options to NOMAIL.  This will
register you as a subscriber, but keep you from receiving the individual
postings, so you can go on reading through HIX, bit.listserv.hungary, or
whatever.

Moving the list to "subscriber-only" posting is a way-station on the road
to full moderation.  If we continue down the path marked out for us by
Mr. Kiss, I'll go that route.  My present decision is not part of any
conspiracy to "protect" Mr. Kornai, who hardly needs my help to fight his
battles--and anyway, Andras and I don't always agree, either!  It's the
considerations of principle I outlined above that influenced me.

A final thought:  Mr. Kiss, insofar as he can think coherently, seems to
be bothered about the reputation of Hungary and Hungarians abroad.  I
wonder who has done more for Hungary's reputation, the Kornai's (father
and son) whose combined listings in the simple OCLC catalogue total over
80 items in Hungarian, English, German, French, Chinese, Japanese, and
Czech?  Or , who seems content merely to excrete the kind
of irrational, racialist, ultra-nationalist claptrap that confirms any
prejudice any foreigner ever had about Hungarians as right-wing radical
anti-Semitic nationalists, and even in Hungary seems to appeal strongly
to at best a tiny minority of the electorate?  Who are the "true" Magyars?
Who is defaming the nation?

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

Listowner, 

Andras Kornai, on 22 Nov 95 writes re: Half a Century Ago:

>
>Csaba Zoltani and Joe Pannon are attempting to defend the indefensible
>

and 

>
>a well documented case is the entire Jewish population of the village
>of Putnok
>

The book by Levai (Zsidosors Magyarorszagon, Budapest, Magyar Teka,
1948) mentions Putnok, but only in context of the internment of illegal
aliens. The events are not documented. Gonda Laszlo, A Zsidosag
Magyarorszagon, 1526-1945, Budapest, Szazadveg, 1992, does not mention
Putnok. Braham briefly mentions Putnok, but mainly in context of the
Jewish deportations after the German invasion, and not as something
related to Bardossy, see vol I, p.172, or vol 2, p.36-7 (1988). A. Geyer
indeed claims in his tract (1960) that the "a putnoki zsidokat az utolso
pillanatban forditottak vissza Korosmezorol", i.e. the deportees, at the
last minute were turned back at Korosmezo (i.e. at the border).  As
Braham points out, the Hungarian authorities were unlikely to have known
about the German intentions regarding the illegal aliens who have been
deported to Kamenec-Podolsk. Indeed, upon learning  about the actions of
the Germans, the Hungarian interior minister, Keresztes-Fischer, stopped
the deportations.

>
>seems like the best you can offer in Bardossy's defense is comparing
>him to current war criminals
>

This is not a defense of a person but that of the historical record.
Taking a snippet only distorts the view and certainly can mislead,
especially those who are unaware of the history of the time.

Probably the best and most accessible source on the trial of Bardossy is

	Pritz Pal, Bardossy Laszlo a Nepbirosag Elott.
	Maecenas Konyvkiado, Budapest, 1991.

The book contains the record of the interrogation by the US Seventh
Army, the charges brought against Bardossy, testimony of twenty-one
witnesses, a record of the seven days of the trial and the final
statement of the accused.

Based on accessible transcripts, no evidence was presented at the trial
that Bardossy ordered any atrocities or that he had foreknowledge of
what was to happen to deportees who were requested by the Germans for
labor service.

The record makes it clear that Bardossy's trial was political retribution
not the search for justice. For example, per par. 1 of Nbr. 13, he is 
accused of war crimes for having given a speech on January 15, 1942, at
the reception for the italian foreign minister Ciano, having stated 
that "...Hungary, at the side of Germany and Italy, has entered the
fight for the defense of european civilization against atheistic threat
from the East.....". Many of the other "war crimes" charges are equally
frivolous. Indeed, in Soviet occupied Hungary the concept of justice
as we know it, was nonexistent. On the basis of existing laws in 
Hungary at the time, it is doubtful that the court had jurisdiction or
even if the charges were legal.

John F. Montgomery, the US envoy to Hungary between 1933 and 1941, in
his book, Hungary, the Unwilling Satellite, Vista Books, Morristown, NJ
1993 (reprint of the 1947 edition), writes as follows:

"After the German attack on Yugoslavia the question was who should
occupy Bacska, formerly a valuable province of Hungary, the German or
the Hungarian army? Apart from considerable Hungarian minority
inhabiting that territory, the Serbs, themselves, preferred Hungarian
occupation. Thus, except for one incident, when Hungarian troops in Novi
Sad (Ujvidek) at the order of the German High Command committed cruel
excesses against the population, that territory escaped the brutalities
inflicted by German troops of occupation in other parts of Yugoslavia.
It also must be noted that the Hungarian government applied reprisals
against the military commanders guilty of the Novi Sad massacre. Four of
the responsible high officers were condemned to death but were abducted
by the Germans before execution and given full rank in the German
SS-proving in whose behalf they had acted".

As far as declaring war is concerned, Montgomery writes as follows:
"President Roosevelt evaluated the situation correctly. He knew that
war declarations coming from those small countries were forced by Hitler
and he was, therefore, inclined to ignore them. On June 2, 1942, that is
after six months of Soviet insistence, the President sent a message to
Congress stating that Rumania, Hungary and Bulgaria had declared war
on the United States, but he added: "I realize that those three
governments took that action not upon their own initiative or in response
to the wishes of their own peoples, but as instruments of Hitler."..."

If Andras has sources to support his broadbrush charges of "war crimes"
committed by Bardossy, he should make them public. Some of us have
an open mind on this matter.

CSABA K. ZOLTANI

I have been merely reading the discussion on this topic.  I think the
Brits and French should clean up the mess that they have created.  A few
months back somebody in this discussion group has mentioned a document
that Mitterand diclosed before stepping down.  This document proved that
the French were indeed involved in the coup that did away with the
archduke.

World War I was, therefore, the result of a pissing contest between the
French/British duo and the Austrian Monarchy.  At the end of the war they
forced people together, who are natural enemies of each other.  the US
had no interest in seeing the formation of a Yugoslavia or Czechslavakia
because noe of these would affect its existence.  The US presence is
merely used to maintain the image of the US as world power, as it intends
to do the same now.  I think this type of philosophy should not be
pursued to the extent that Americans are victimized.  We know from both
documents and movies that the French were completely unreliable, and they
have the propensity to show the same face now. Just Remember the
Versailles Treaty!!!

Dear big cool guy,

I'm writing a thesis about Radio Free Europe and would like to examine
their role in the fall of Communism in Eastern Europe.
I'm only starting to write it, so any information on the radio itself
(organization, future plans, structure,...) would be helpfull.
I have some books on the problems in Eastern Europe and probably the
Hungarian Revolt will be discussed in it.
We could help each other in that way...
I'm also planning a trip to RFE in January...

Sincerely,

Vincent Lippens

Dear big cool guy,

I'm writing a thesis about Radio Free Europe and would like to examine
their role in the fall of Communism in Eastern Europe.
I'm only starting to write it, so any information on the radio itself
(organization, future plans, structure,...) would be helpfull.
I have some books on the problems in Eastern Europe and probably the
Hungarian Revolt will be discussed in it.
We could help each other in that way...
I'm also planning a trip to RFE in January...

Sincerely,

Vincent Lippens

my adress: F. Lintsstraat 134
           3000 Leuven
           Belgium

Dear Professor Agnew,
Your decision on list behaviour enjoys my full support.
Sincerely,
Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

Contact OMRI in Prague (get the address on Internet). The archives of RFE were
bought by the Soros Foundation and are being set up in Budapest.Contact them as
 well.
Good luck,
Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

Andras Kornai, on 22 Nov 95 writes re: Half a Century Ago:

>
>Csaba Zoltani and Joe Pannon are attempting to defend the indefensible
>

and

>
>a well documented case is the entire Jewish population of the village
>of Putnok
>

The book by Levai (Zsidosors Magyarorszagon, Budapest, Magyar Teka,
1948) mentions Putnok, but only in context of the internment of illegal
aliens. The events are not documented. Gonda Laszlo, A Zsidosag
Magyarorszagon, 1526-1945, Budapest, Szazadveg, 1992, does not mention
Putnok. Braham briefly mentions Putnok, but mainly in context of the
Jewish deportations after the German invasion, and not as something
related to Bardossy, see vol I, p.172, or vol 2, p.36-7 (1988). A. Geyer
indeed claims in his tract (1960) that the "a putnoki zsidokat az utolso
pillanatban forditottak vissza Korosmezorol", i.e. the deportees, at the
last minute were turned back at Korosmezo (i.e. at the border).  As
Braham points out, the Hungarian authorities were unlikely to have known
about the German intentions regarding the illegal aliens who have been
deported to Kamenec-Podolsk. Indeed, upon learning  about the actions of
the Germans, the Hungarian interior minister, Keresztes-Fischer, stopped
the deportations.

>
>seems like the best you can offer in Bardossy's defense is comparing
>him to current war criminals
>

This is not a defense of a person but that of the historical record.
Taking a snippet only distorts the view and certainly can mislead,
especially those who are unaware of the history of the time.

Probably the best and most accessible source on the trial of Bardossy is

        Pritz Pal, Bardossy Laszlo a Nepbirosag Elott.
        Maecenas Konyvkiado, Budapest, 1991.

The book contains the record of the interrogation by the US Seventh
Army, the charges brought against Bardossy, testimony of twenty-one
witnesses, a record of the seven days of the trial and the final
statement of the accused.

Based on accessible transcripts, no evidence was presented at the trial
that Bardossy ordered any atrocities or that he had foreknowledge of
what was to happen to deportees who were requested by the Germans for
labor service.

The record makes it clear that Bardossy's trial was political retribution
not the search for justice. For example, per par. 1 of Nbr. 13, he is
accused of war crimes for having given a speech on January 15, 1942, at
the reception for the italian foreign minister Ciano, having stated
that "...Hungary, at the side of Germany and Italy, has entered the
fight for the defense of european civilization against atheistic threat
from the East.....". Many of the other "war crimes" charges are equally
frivolous. Indeed, in Soviet occupied Hungary the concept of justice
as we know it, was nonexistent. On the basis of existing laws in
Hungary at the time, it is doubtful that the court had jurisdiction or
even if the charges were legal.

John F. Montgomery, the US envoy to Hungary between 1933 and 1941, in
his book, Hungary, the Unwilling Satellite, Vista Books, Morristown, NJ
1993 (reprint of the 1947 edition), writes as follows:

"After the German attack on Yugoslavia the question was who should
occupy Bacska, formerly a valuable province of Hungary, the German or
the Hungarian army? Apart from considerable Hungarian minority
inhabiting that territory, the Serbs, themselves, preferred Hungarian
occupation. Thus, except for one incident, when Hungarian troops in Novi
Sad (Ujvidek) at the order of the German High Command committed cruel
excesses against the population, that territory escaped the brutalities
inflicted by German troops of occupation in other parts of Yugoslavia.
It also must be noted that the Hungarian government applied reprisals
against the military commanders guilty of the Novi Sad massacre. Four of
the responsible high officers were condemned to death but were abducted
by the Germans before execution and given full rank in the German
SS-proving in whose behalf they had acted".

As far as declaring war is concerned, Montgomery writes as follows:
"President Roosevelt evaluated the situation correctly. He knew that
war declarations coming from those small countries were forced by Hitler
and he was, therefore, inclined to ignore them. On June 2, 1942, that is
after six months of Soviet insistence, the President sent a message to
Congress stating that Rumania, Hungary and Bulgaria had declared war
on the United States, but he added: "I realize that those three
governments took that action not upon their own initiative or in response
to the wishes of their own peoples, but as instruments of Hitler."..."

If Andras has sources to support his broadbrush charges of "war crimes"
committed by Bardossy, he should make them public. Some of us have
an open mind on this matter.

En nem ertem ezt egeszen, eddig tudtam a Hungary-ba is irni. Remelem, az 
erdeklodok a TIPP-et is olvassak.



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From: L-Soft list server at GWUVM (1.8b) >
To: 
Subject: Rejected posting to 

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 Tue, 28 Nov 1995 06:27:43 -0800
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 06:27:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Robert Hetzron >
To: HIX HUNGARY >
Subject: Re: Hungarian video
In-Reply-To: >
Message-Id: >
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

To whom it may concern: Hungarian films on video tapes are sold by
European Video Distributors, 2321 W. Olive Ave., Suite "C", Burbank,
California 91506 USA, their toll free number is (800)423-6752. They are
very reliable, send tapes by return of mail.		Robert

Pecs has a population of approximately 250,000 people.

Eva Balogh

Laci Toth:

>However,closing this
>subject,I like to ask the following question:Is anybody ever thinking about
>what Hungary will be like once everything is privatised?

Economic growth will begin and in ten years or so people will live better.

Eva Balogh

According to Joe Szalai in order to make a generalization about prevailing
Canadian attitudes I would have to talk to every single Canadian and ask him
or her whether, in this instance, he or she is anti-American or not. And once
all 25 million or so said: "yes, I am," I can triumphantly announce that
Canadians are not terribly fond of the United States.

Admittedly, in the last few years I haven't sampled Canadian public opinion
on the matter, but I vividly recall when a sizable portion of my alma mater's
faculty petitioned the university authorities to expell their American
colleagues and forbid American applicants to gain employment at the
university. Luckily, cooler heads prevailed but this kind of attitudes are
not rare.

And, I am afraid, Joe Szalai's own words don't dispel my suspicions:

>Canadians and Hungarians have at least one thing in common.  We both live
>beside great powers.  Historically, we have been critical of their actions
>and power.  And rightfully so!!  We were, or could always be their next
>conquest.  If all this makes me anti-American, then I'll wear the label with
>some pride.
>

I think it is quite legitimate to ask whether Joe Szalai's criticism of U.S.
foreign policy stems from genuine concerns or perhaps it is colored by his
paranoia concerning the "evil intentions" of Canada's neighbor.

Eva Balogh

Joe Szalai has strange notions about the Bosnian conflict, when he says such
things as:

>What is
>happening in Bosnia is very sad and tragic.  But, still, it's a conflict for
>Europeans to stop.  The US is welcomed to help as a member of NATO or the UN
>but why does the US need to take a leading role?

The European community in the last four years has shown that it didn't have
the will to stop the civil war in the former Yugoslavia although the conflict
threatened the peace of their own continent. The Europeans kept waiting for
the American initiative which wasn't forthcoming. Or rather, one day the
Americans said this, the next day that. For the last three or four years
American attitude toward the Yugoslav crisis was anything but honorable. At
last NATO showed some resolve thanks to American leadership, and a few weeks
later the Bosnian Serbs and the Serbs of rump Yugoslavia at last saw the
light: it is better to retreat from the idea of a Greater Serbia and make
peace. The compromise arrived at Dayton puts an end (I hope) of a
four-year-old conflict which resulted in 200,000 casualties, terrible
atrocities from ethnic cleansing to concentration camps. The United States at
last acted decisively and I think that their cause is a good cause.

One could criticize American foreign policy toward Bosnia severely for
American inaction but criticizing them today is misguided. At least in my
opinion.

As far as NATO's extension to Eastern Europe is concerned, I repeat: I find
it extremely important for the sake of the region's security and I don't
think that it is surprising that it is the Munkaspart (extreme left) which is
against Hungary's adherence to the pact.

As for Hungary's role in the Bosnian peacekeeping activity it seems that all
the parties agree to the presence of NATO troops in Hungary. Moreover,
according to the latest polls the majority of the population is in favor of
Hungary's joining NATO.

Eva Balogh

>
> Pecs has a population of approximately 250,000 people.
>
> Eva Balogh
>

Eva, may I revise that number down to 185,000? That was the number I was
given last year. If all of Baranya megye is included, your number is much
closer.

Darren Purcell

 (Butch) wrote:

:>I am looking for someone in the vancouver area that could and would be
willing
:>to translate a letter in english into hungarian.

:>Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.

:>If you can, please respond in email to advoid cluttering up this newsgroup.

:>Thanks.

:

errr.....make that anyone anywhere, sorry!

Eva Balogh writes

>According to Joe Szalai in order to make a generalization about prevailing
>Canadian attitudes I would have to talk to every single Canadian and ask him
>or her whether, in this instance, he or she is anti-American or not. And once
>all 25 million or so said: "yes, I am," I can triumphantly announce that
>Canadians are not terribly fond of the United States.
>
>Admittedly, in the last few years I haven't sampled Canadian public opinion
>on the matter, but I vividly recall when a sizable portion of my alma mater's
>faculty petitioned the university authorities to expell their American
>colleagues and forbid American applicants to gain employment at the
>university. Luckily, cooler heads prevailed but this kind of attitudes are
>not rare.
I don't suppose you would be willing to admit to something else also?  Do
you recall what percentage of faculty at Canadian Universities were/are
American?  No other industrialized country in the world would have as many
non-citizens teaching in their universities as Canada did/does.  If 70
percent of the profs in Hungary were Russian citizens, what would your
reaction be?

>And, I am afraid, Joe Szalai's own words don't dispel my suspicions:
>
>>Canadians and Hungarians have at least one thing in common.  We both live
>>beside great powers.  Historically, we have been critical of their actions
>>and power.  And rightfully so!!  We were, or could always be their next
>>conquest.  If all this makes me anti-American, then I'll wear the label
>>with some pride.
>>
>
>I think it is quite legitimate to ask whether Joe Szalai's criticism of U.S.
>foreign policy stems from genuine concerns or perhaps it is colored by his
>paranoia concerning the "evil intentions" of Canada's neighbor.
>
>Eva Balogh
>
The other day you said that my 'anti-Americanism' was like a virus.  Now I
am also paranoid.  Are you moonlighting as a quack???

Joe Szalai

Dr. Agnew:
Are you sure you're not already excluding posters from the list? My own
posts don't seem to ever make it on. Guess they're not sufficiently
inflammatory.

I tried to pull up Janos Kiss' AOL biography, but wouldn't you know it --
he didn't bother to file one. We have a colorful adjective we like to use
down here in North Carolina for folks who hide behind pseudonyms to avoid
the consequences of their hate speech. That adjective is "chickenshit." I
think it rather nicely sums up Kiss ur's cowardice.

Sam Stowe

J. Doepp writes

>This discussion seems so foreign on this side of the ocean.  There is
>almost no debate about whether to let the americans base themselves in
>pecs.  Perhaps the MIEP and the MSzMP have spoken out against it, but I
>haven't read anything (and i read the magyar nemzet).
>
>Hungarians I know here, when they speak against the US, usually complain
>that the US did not do enough to help the revolution in 1956.  They
>promised their assistance, but then the Suez canal deal took everyone's
>attention away from Hungary (de ez a balsorsunk, ugye?)  Or they wish the
>US had been more forceful in the drawing of the treaty of Trianon...
>(again balsors).
>
>I have seen anti-semitism, anti-Russian, anti-Rumanian,
>>anti-Slovakian, anti-French, and perhaps a general
>anti-foreign sentiment, to a far greater extent than anything anti-american.
>
>Perhaps the only way for Hungarians to become truly anti-american, would be
>for them to move to canada.
>
>j doepp

Or perhaps Mexico.  The closer one lives to a great power the more
uncomfortable one feels.  Most Canadians live within 100km from the American
border.  It is not a shame for us to express our feelings of discomfort once
in a while.  Besides, there isin't much else we can do, given the power
imbalance between Canada and the US.

Joe Szalai

I don't agree with your decision to remove Kiss Janos from the list.  I have
no more desire to read his 'TWO MINUTES OF HATE' than you do.  However,
philosophically, I find censorship as distressfull as hate literature.

Joe Szalai

Greg Grose writes
>
>Joe Szalai wrote:
>
>
>: Besides, America only gets involved if it is to its advantage.
>
>And what, pray, is our advantage in Bosnia?
>
>
>--Greg Grose


I really don't know, Greg.  Why don't you tell us.  I can't imagine that
it's just old fashioned altruism.  Mind you, if it were, it would have my
total support.

Joe Szalai

Eva Durant writes
>
>I'd like to add, that anti-american cannot be racist,
>while anti-semite is nothing else.  Anti-american
>is not anti  -american person, but anti -american policies.
>(a previous posting declared these two anti-s to be the same.)


Thanks Eva.  You are, of course, correct.  When some writers on this list
label me anti-American, I feel that they are saying that I am anti -American
person.  Nothing is further from the truth.  I hope they're not also saying
that being against American policy is as evil as being anti- American person.

Joe Szalai

Joe Szalai wrote:

> Greg Grose writes
> >
> >Joe Szalai wrote:
> >: Besides, America only gets involved if it is to its advantage.
> >
> >And what, pray, is our advantage in Bosnia?
> >
> I really don't know, Greg.  Why don't you tell us.

That will not do.  YOU make a very sweeping statement - YOU show proof.

And it must be a proof strong enough for such an absolute statement, not
some motley collection of hearsay or incidents.

> I can't imagine that
> it's just old fashioned altruism.  Mind you, if it were, it would have my
> total support.

The pretend generosity of the second sentence is cynically negated by the first
.

Beyond this particular article, I am getting fed up by your whingeing and
paranoia about the US.  Sure, it is not a boy scout camp, and I too prefer
living in Australia to the US.

However, it was the US that did something forward-looking for the victims of
Chetnik Nazism, however belatedly and half-heartedly.  The European powers
were just crying crocodile tears and ensuring that people would not die of
hunger before they could be raped, chased from their homes and killed by
the Chetniks.   A spit on the graves of the victims of Nazism half a century
ago, I reckon.

Given that discrepancy, my reserved appreciation goes to the US, not to
Europe, and I am glad that the US got involved in the end.  I am also
hopeful if Hungary will ever be in a similar situation, the US will help
there too: it is all too clear what anyone can expect from the EU.

And, yes, the world needs some kind of international policing of certain
basic principles (if you ask me to a much greater extent than it is done
now), and only the US seems to have the residual guts and idealism to fit the
bill.

George Antony

On Mon, 27 Nov 1995, Joe Szalai wrote:

> Darren Purcelle writes
>
>(clip clip)

> Don't worry about that Darren.  The United States is not the worst empire in
> the world.  It's not even close.  The US has done a lot of good in the world
> (often unthanked!).  But it has also flexed its muscle in ways that make me
> want to vomit.  Life's like that.
> >
> >However, I do believe we have some business in being there. I hope the
>
> Why do you believe that the Americans have any business being there.
> Certainly the conflict in Bosnia is not a threat to the US.  What is
> happening in Bosnia is very sad and tragic.  But, still, it's a conflict for
> Europeans to stop.  The US is welcomed to help as a member of NATO or the UN
> but why does the US need to take a leading role?  Might does not equal right!
>
> >Canadians will serve as well, since they are a valuable fighting force . I
>
> Once again, don't worry.  If the Americans want the Canadians to serve, the
> Canadians will.  It's not that I agree, but in Canada we have a common
> saying.  'If the Americans say jump, Canadians ask 'How high?'.  That is the
> price of our independence. ;-(
>
> >wish Europe had done more in it's own
> >backyard but since it didn't someone should try and get some results. If
> >it has to be the U.S. so be it. But I wouldn't sweat it, if Gramm and
> >Dole have their way, (they forget how valuable a war for oil is, not
> >for humanity)
>
> Joe Szalai
>

This discussion seems so foreign on this side of the ocean.  There is
almost no debate about whether to let the americans base themselves in
pecs.  Perhaps the MIEP and the MSzMP have spoken out against it, but I
haven't read anything (and i read the magyar nemzet).

Hungarians I know here, when they speak against the US, usually complain
that the US did not do enough to help the revolution in 1956.  They
promised their assistance, but then the Suez canal deal took everyone's
attention away from Hungary (de ez a balsorsunk, ugye?)  Or they wish the
US had been more forceful in the drawing of the treaty of Trianon...
(again balsors).

I have seen anti-semitism, anti-Russian, anti-Rumanian,
anti-Slovakian, anti-French, and perhaps a general
anti-foreign sentiment, to a far greater extent than anything anti-american.

Perhaps the only way for Hungarians to become truly anti-american, would be
for them to move to canada.

j doepp



!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!

James D. Doepp
University of Miskolc (Hungary)
Department of Economic Theory



"Mr Turnbull had predicted evil consequences,...
and was now doing the best in his power to bring
about the verification of his own prophecies."

A. Trollope

!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!%!

According to yesterday's Nepsabadsag, the less-than-brilliant remarks
made by Torgyan during a visit to Cleveland are making the rounds on
the Internet to the embarrassment of certain folks here.

Has anyone seen anything about it on the 'net?

Mary McKinley