On 6 Dec 1996  wrote:

> BeeJay  > wrote:
> >
> >Ahem, I personally think that Joe was responding to Van Dijk's
> >*exaggeration*.
> 
> Yeap!  I also found it ironic for somebody from Holland to point fingers
> at US and blaming us for major drug addiction.  Is there a more liberal
> developed country with regards to drug usage than Holland?

Don't think so...

BeeJay.

On 03-dec-96 05:00:31, danubius wrote the following about Re: Antw: Navo is a p
olitical dwarf  (was Re: Thanks Hungary):
> Jeroen M.W. van Dijk > wrote:

[snip]

>>
>>Don't you middle europeans don't know that USA is backrupt don't pay its 
>>contributions to the international organisations.

> As far as I am concerned, it's all money flushed down the toilet,
> anyway.  With a few exceptions, those international organizations are a
> joke.  Especially the UN itself.

That's just what the US government wants you to believe, so that they can
continue using their power in the UN/Security Council and let other countries
pay for it.

I guess you forgot how eager Bush was to use the UN/Security Council when they
got into a conflict with Iraq.

-- 
<tsb>Zorba

Karel Stokkermans wrote:  [...]

Karel!
Welkom terug!

de Yeti

 (Tony) wrote:
>In >  (jeff
>nunner) writes: 
>>
>>Hey... my friend's grandmother once taught me a Hungarian (Magyar,
>even?)
>>saying which was the Anglo-equivalent of "the boy who cried wolf".  In
>>English, it was loosely translated as "The girl got up one morning and
>>didn't want to go to school, so she said her toe hurt, but her mother
>>found out and made her go anyway."  And it's pronounced: (my ASCII IPA
>>isn't perfect. Please be gentle with flames...)
>>
>>	[IS kilaba fail lalaba xUzai nEmi nEmfai SEmi]
>>
>>If anyone could help me and tell me how to spell it in Hungarian and a
>
>>more exact English-translation, I would really appreciate it.  Thanks!
>

Lassuk csak! Iskola'ba fel a lala'ba hazamenni nem fa'j semmi (?)
                       ^^^ (I think this "fel" or "fail" as is originally 
typed should be "faj") 

                

What the??? I think the translation would roughly fall along the lines of 
"One hurts its leg going to school, one doesn't hurt anything by going 
home" Not quite "a boy who cried wolf" but maybe my own translation is 
screwed up. 
>
>I think you have parts of the pronunciation slightly wrong.   The
>Hungarian for "to school" is "iskolaba".   (I believe the "-ba" ending
>means "to").

"-ba"/"-be" suffixes roughly corresponds to "into" or "to" prepositions. 
"-ra"/"-re" or "-nak"/"-nek" roughly corresponds to "to" or "for" 
prepositions.
>
>So the first word would be "Iskolaba", one word.  Now my Hungarian
>isn't very good; the only way I know this is my contact with a
>long-time ex-girlfriend who is Hungarian, with her family, and from our
>travels in Hungary.   The last word, "semi" is pronounced "SHEM-mi" and
>means "nothing".   I really doubt the whole English sentence you wrote
>above could be translated into that short a phrase in Hungarian.  
>Although Hungarian is a (somewhat?) agglutinative language (like
>Turkish), it generally uses no fewer words to express thoughts than
>most other European languages.   I realize Hungarian is not rooted in
>European languages, that its roots are in north Asia (specifically
>western Siberia, which is now part of Russia).   But actually, I found
>Hungarian quite easy to learn, much easier than, say, Russian, which is
>supposedly closer to most other languages of Europe (being of the
>Indo-European family).  The pronunciation of Hungarian is very
>straightforward; the diacritics and spelling rules are a bit peculiar,
>but very consistant.  Hungarian doesn't have many unpronounceable
>sounds, like Russian or Czech.   You have to get used to accenting the
>first syllable on EVERY word in Hungarian, no matter how long the word
>is.   For instance, the name of the country is "Magyarorszag", accented
>on the "MA".   There are even words much longer, but still accented on
>that first syllable.   To me, Hungarian was so easy to pick up that I
>would often string together my own sentences using vocabulary I had
>picked up, and conjugating my own verbs ad hoc according to the rules I
>had absorbed -- and actually be UNDERSTOOD by the Hungarians around me!
>
>Another amazing thing I have observed:  the striking similarity in
>sound between Hungarian and Turkish, to those who (like myself) speak
>neither language.   Somewhere, a long time ago, I may have read that
>Hungarian was somehow related to Turkish; but I cannot find such
>references now -- it seems the only other modern language of any
>importance related to Hungarian is Finnish.   Nevertheless, I have
>Turkish neighbors and I am amazed at the similarity of the "sound" of
>Hungarian and Turkish!   
>
>The grammatical rules are pretty consistent.   Interestingly, though
>Hungarian is an Asiatic (Finno-Ugric) language, its grammatical rules
>seem to roughly parallel those of Western, Indo-European languages.  
>For instance, there is a consistent infinitive verb form, marked by the
>suffix "-ni" in most cases.   You conjugate verbs much like you do,
>say, in the Romance languages:  I want to eat is "En akkarak enni" --
>"en" is "I", akkarak is the first person singular of the verb "to
>want", the "-ak" ending denoting the proper conjugated form.   The verb
>"to eat" appears in its infinitive form, immediately after the verb "I
>want".   This is EXACTLY like French, Spanish, and Italian!   To me,
>that's an amazing coincidence, given that Hungarian isn't even remotely
>related to those languages.   

Originally, Magyar was more of a SOV language however, its word order is 
very free and only one golden rule is followed in word order, emphasis.

Ex. E'n akarok enni = I want to eat ("I" and only "I" - no one else)

Ja'nos egy haza't ke'rek = John is looking for a HOUSE (and nothing else)

Ja'nos ke'rek egy haza't = JOHN is looking for a house (and nobody else)

Ke'rek egy haza't = I'm LOOKING for a house (I'm looking for a house 
only - not doing anything else with it like painting or wrecking it.)

>I could go on with my observations about Hungarian....does anyone out
>there have an explanation for these seeming coincidences?   Can anyone
>provide other examples of striking similarities between Hungarian and
>Indo-European languages?
>
>Tony

Latin: uxor (wife)
Magyar: asszony (madam)

English: copy
Magyar: ke'p (picture, portrait)

English: sister / German: Schwester / French: soeur / Latin: soror
Magyar: szu"z (virgin)

English: night / German: Nacht / French: nuit / Latin: nox
Magyar: nyugat (west - where the sun sets giving way to NIGHT)

English: sigh
Magyar: sohajtozik

English: milk / German: milch
Magyar: mell (breast)

English: water / German: Wasser / Russian: vod
Magyar: vi'z

English: seven / German: Sieben / French: sept / Greek: hepta
Magyar: he't

English: ten / Latin: deci / French: dix
Magyar: ti'z

Remember the centum/saetum theory of the I-E languages??? (centum = 
saetum = "hundred")
Magyar: sza'z

English: berry
Magyar: eper (strawberry - this match is very questionable)

Greek: Pyros (fire - connatation of fire)
Magyar: piros (red)

French: four (oven)
Magyar: forro' (burning)

Russian: chetirye (four)
Magyar: csu:to:rto:k (Thursday - fourth day of the week)

Greek: penta (five)
Magyar: pe'ntek (Friday - fifth day of the week)

English: fair
Magyar: fehe'r (white)

French: fils (son)
Magyar: fiu' (boy)

Latin: qui (who) / French: qui (who)
Magyar: ki (who)

French: tu (you - personal pronoun)
Magyar: te (you - 2nd person pronoun)

English: me, I (1st personal pronoun)
Magyar: "-m" suffix (this "-m" suffix is used in many cases - ex. 
"enni" = to eat "esz-em" = I eat. The "-m" suffix is also used to denote 
possession by the first person ex. "ko:nyv" = book "a ko:nyv-em = my 
book.)

English: we
Magyar: mi

English: see
Magyar: szem (eye)

Latin: sem (seed - English derivative = semen)
Magyar: szem (seed - not "eye" in this context)

English: ewe
Magyar: juh (goat, lamb - I think this match is a fluke)

English: suck
Magyar: szi'v (heart, it sucks in)

English: volcano / Latin: Vulcan (God of Fire)
Magyar: meleg (hot - where the "m" sound is related to the "v" sound)

Hindu: ektu (one)
Magyar: egy (pronounced e-dy)

Farsi (Iranian): hezar (thousand)
Magyar: ezer (thousand)

I'm not one to say that the ancient Magyars borrowed or derived a lot of 
their words from I-E languages (in fact I think its the other way 
around!) but these correspondences are interesting and a few of 
Greenburg's Norstratic advocates would find these words useful in 
boosting a Norstratic language family (Indo-European, Turanian and the 
Paleo-Siberian language families as one large superfamily). I personally 
believe that the ultimate root of Magyar is Sumerian and that several 
ethno-linguistic families including Indo-European and Turanian recieved 
strong influence from the Sumerians during History. However, based on my 
readings and understanding of Magyar history and ancient history, I 
believe that the modern Hungarians are a Sumerian-related people if not 
direct descendants of them. I am aware that I am being laughed at but I 
genuinely believe this to be true and I'm not forcing anyone to believe 
me...

Cheers,

Peter Chong

On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, Ania Oleksik wrote:

> On 5 Dec 1996 12:53:21 -0800, BeeJay > wrote:
> 
> >On Thu, 5 Dec 1996, Ania Oleksik wrote:
> >
> >> On 4 Dec 1996 01:35:22 GMT,  () wrote:
> >
> >[American life only good for the rich and the companies, according to some
> >frustrated cloggy who thinks he's speaking a German dialect]
> 
> If it makes you feel better to call your opponents names, go ahead,
> but don't expect us to take you seriously any longer. Why would Jeroen
                   ^^
I take it that should read "me". You speak for yourself in the first
place, in my humble opinion.

> be frustrated? He's just hot-tempered, and he may be wrong. But
> there's no reason to attribute any vile motives to his opinion. Can
> you remain reasonable?

He was hot-tempered, you can say that. I responded in a reasonable
fashion (i.e. I could have been far more aggressive), and I have the
right to respond the way I did, so don't complain.
 
> >> >I wonder why then everybody wants to come here.  They should really talk
> >> >to you first.
> >> 
> >> By far, the rest of the world would NOT want to live in the U.S.
> >> Take me as an example.
> >
> >No, I will not take you as an example, because what you claim is in my
> >humble opinion questionable. 
> 
> You only consider examples who agree with you? I guess you are far
> away from any bachelor's or master's or PhD degree.

Do I say that??? Can you read??? I don't take you as the example for what
the majority would like to do, because I don't think that the majority
would like the same things as you, or I have at least my doubts about
that. Is it a little less cloudy for you now?
My degree doesn't matter; my opinion matters here, and it's ridiculous to
bring this up. My degree is none of your business anyway.

> >As far as I know the US are the most popular
> >destination for migrants. It is also the most accessible destination in
> >the Western world, as far as I know. 
> 
> Yes. Time to wonder if you know enough to back up this assertion. If
> not, it is empty. Everyone thinks his/her country is the most
> accessible and takes up too many migrants. BTW, shall we relate
> numbers to size of the country here? Or do you think this is an
> irrelevant factor?

Ahum, now be careful, because there's plenty of information on the Net
supporting my case. For a start I would advice you to go to the Website of
the U.S. Dept. of Justice (http://www.usdoj.gov/), and then select the
Immigration and Naturalization Service. You can trust that
information, believe me.

> >> >>The most americans are living in their
> >> >>self made dream of drugs and crime. 
> >> >
> >> >You shouldn't give yourself away this fast ...
> >> >Any other jokes you might have, ing. Jeroen? 
> >> 
> >> Inadequate reply. Jeroen may exaggerate, but his argument
> >> is valid that the U.S. has a VERY SERIOUS drug and poverty
> >> problem. Also when compared to countries without capitalism
> >> as its bible.
> >
> >Ahem, I personally think that Joe was responding to Van Dijk's
> >*exaggeration*.
> 
> I agree with you ! (hooray) But that is exactly my point: Joe
> addresses merely the exaggeration (I stated so) but not the argument
> itself. That's why I call his reply inadequate (I avoided the word
> 'cheap).

Aha, but to what extend did he exaggerate? His generalizations were out
of the ordinary. I can understand an American citizen would feel insulted
by such crap, and I therefore understand that Joe reacted that way.

> >Yes, there's a drugs problem and there's a lot of poverty ("take me as an
> >example"), but that doesn't make life necessarily unbearable.  
>  
> So you have come back from asserting that America is great period or
> America is the best country for migrants or America is the best-loved
> country in the world or whatever great things to say about America

Never said that, dear. Can you actually read??? Your abilities in that
regard are really questionable. I refer to my first response to Van Dijk.

> to 
> 
> Life in America is bearable in spite of its problems with drugs and
> poverty.

That's what I indeed more or less said in my initial response. Personally
I'm happy here, that's more than just bearable.

> I think we have found agreement at the end of the line.
> 
> Let's celebrate.
>
>
> Michel Couzijn
> Amsterdam, The Netherlands (a great country, by the way...)
             
BeeJay.

JOHN L. BERENYI > wrote:
>Where can I buy some really authentic gypsy music.  I've searched hard
>and long and have had no luck.
>
>Janos Berenyi Jr.

If you have any Tower Music store in your area, they should have it in
their international section.  That's where I found Marta Sebestyen CDs
as well.

BTW, a couple nights ago I was watching the Chase Corp. Challange race
(running) on ESPN and there was a Norbert Berenyi running among the
featured ones.  Is he any relation to you by any chance?  I've never
heard of this guy before.

Joe Pannon

In > Peter k Chong >
writes: 

[information about Magyar-Indo/European cognates and Hungarian coming
from Sumerian]

Fascinating theory.  I also noticed some of those cognates, such as
Hungarian "ki" for "who", "tiz" for "ten", etc.   I think some of your
examples are very far-fetched, though, such as "sziv" for "suck" and
"meleg" for "volcano".   

I read that there are two or three very small (population) languages
extant today which are in the same sub-family of FU as Hungarian:  one
of them has the name "Chanty", I think.   Interesting:  it seems to
evoke "chant", French for "sing"!    This language is supposedly spoken
in the far northern tundra of Russia.

During my time spent around Hungarians I noticed many cognates.  
However, like I said, the most striking thing was the regularity and
conventionality (to a Westerner schooled in Romance languages) of its
grammar.   

Whatever the origins of the Magyars, they appeared for the first time
in central Europe sometime during the early Middle Ages, I think.  
They were apparently an Asian people who looked more like Central Asian
nomadic peoples (the Uzbeks, Mongols, etc.) but after centuries of
admixture with Germanic/Slavic peoples, they acquired the physical
features of those Europeans, so that now they are indistinguishable
from those in surrounding countries who speak IE languages.  

I would think the same thing happened with the Japanese.   Somewhere I
read that the Japanese language is thought to be related to the Altaic
languages (Turkish).   Maybe at some time in the distant past, the
whole of North Asia was sparsely settled by these Altaic peoples, and
they settled the Japanese islands.   Then, over thousands of years of
invasions by people from the Asian mainland (Chung Kuo, etc.) they
gradually acquired some of the physical features of those peoples.  

I am by no means an expert on these things (obviously) but your theory
of the Hungarians coming from Sumerians is very interesting, could you
please explain more of it -- factors which you think make this theory
plausible.

Thanks!
Tony

In article >,
BeeJay  > wrote:

[snip]

>And may I remind you that I feel that Van Dijk's post was insulting
>towards Americans? Do you actually see that?

[more snip]

>Now I do have a question, off topic really (has nothing to do with NATO
>Dwarfism) but is it me or is is it just a habit of the Dutch? I mean, a
>week ago or so somebody felt compelled to publish his grades in
>soc.culture.netherlands, apparently to support his case, and now another
>one is asking me to make public my degree, as if that would change
>anything about the validity of my point? Degrees don't matter in any
>discussion, just opinions.

Get that, Ania? 

>                           Or are you also infected with that typical
>calvinistic "holier-than-thou-attitude", that moral superiority that
>almost everybody seems to embrace in Holland? 

I feel that this is insulting towards Dutch people...

Jeaan
-- 
              But at night I'd had these wonderful dreams  [-J.Buffet]
`\------,(__)  Some kind of sensuous treat                       __o 
* |      (oo)   Not zuchini, fettucine or bulghar wheat        _`\<,_ 
* ||w--||(..)~*  But a big warm bun and a huge chunk of meat..(_)/ (_)

Hello,

I am searching for people with the surname PALMUELLER or POLMUELLER in 
Hungary or persons who have ancestors or relatives with this surnames.

Please contact me.

Hallo,

ich suche nach Personen mit den Familiennamen PALMUELLER oder POLMUELLER 
in Ungarn oder nach Ahnenforschern, die Personen mit diesen Namen in 
ihrer Ahnentafel haben.

Bitte kontaktieren Sie mich.

Thanks a lot, vielen Dank!

ing. Jeroen M.W. van Dijk wrote:
> 



[deleted]
> 
> Im sorry. The americans livings standards is only good for the
> companies and the rich people. The most americans are living in their
> self made dream of drugs and crime.
> 


Eh, that's just not true.


MK

Adriana C. Bruggeman > wrote in article
>...
> In article >,
> BeeJay  > wrote:
> 
> >Now I do have a question, off topic really (has nothing to do with NATO
> >Dwarfism) but is it me or is is it just a habit of the Dutch? I mean, a
> >week ago or so somebody felt compelled to publish his grades in
> >soc.culture.netherlands, apparently to support his case, and now another
> >one is asking me to make public my degree, as if that would change
> >anything about the validity of my point? Degrees don't matter in any
> >discussion, just opinions.
> 
> Get that, Ania? 

No, Ania did not get that, since she does not take part in this discussion.
It is
me who wites the contributions. I sign them with my own name. I am in fact
a secret agent from the U.S., the Polish name Ania Oleksik is my cover, and
I
pretend to be critical of the U.S. Up until now, no one noticed. You are
the first
to break my cover. Such a shame!

> >                           Or are you also infected with that typical
> >calvinistic "holier-than-thou-attitude", that moral superiority that
> >almost everybody seems to embrace in Holland? 
> 
> I feel that this is insulting towards Dutch people...

I can stand these insults only because I know who wrote them.
Specially since Bee admitted that he has never been here in The
Netherlands. Or at
least not for a long, long time.

Michel Couzijn AKA Ania Oleksik
Amsterdam, The Netherlands

Hi : mIRC 4.7 has just been released and you can download both the 16-bit
and 32-bit versions form ISFA at :

http://isfa.com/irc/enter.html

It brings pleanty of goodies like automatic flood control. Download also
mIRC FAQ 29.0 for all details on this new version from the same page !

----

There is now a NEW Pele Homepage by Emilio Castańo. This page is not one of
the competition winners, which will be announced tomorrow, but was invited
for the sheer quality of the page before we even announced the Competition
for 10 FREE Web Sites at ISFA.

You will find pictures galore of  Pele and also videos of a some of his
goals. Particularly spectacular is the video of one of his goals in the
1958 World Cup Final against Sweden which Brazil won 5-2. 

Anyway, I can't begin to tell you how awesome this page is, and how much
work and dedication Emilio put into it, and how proud we are to have it at
ISFA's Soccer Server.  You should judge by yourself at :

http://www.isfa.com/server/web/pele/

There is also a graphic that links ISFA's Main Page to Pele's Homepage at
ISFA.

Cheers !
-- 
****************************************
questra
ISFA Administrator
Winning is a state of mind.
Internet Soccer Fans Association (ISFA):
http://www.isfa.com/
****************************************

In > Peter k Chong >
writes: 

[information about Magyar-Indo/European cognates and Hungarian coming
from Sumerian]

Fascinating theory.  I also noticed some of those cognates, such as
Hungarian "ki" for "who", "tiz" for "ten", etc.   I think some of your
examples are very far-fetched, though, such as "sziv" for "suck" and
"meleg" for "volcano".   

I read that there are two or three very small (population) languages
extant today which are in the same sub-family of FU as Hungarian:  one
of them has the name "Chanty", I think.   Interesting:  it seems to
evoke "chant", French for "sing"!    This language is supposedly spoken
in the far northern tundra of Russia.

During my time spent around Hungarians I noticed many cognates.  
However, like I said, the most striking thing was the regularity and
conventionality (to a Westerner schooled in Romance languages) of its
grammar.   

Whatever the origins of the Magyars, they appeared for the first time
in central Europe sometime during the early Middle Ages, I think.  
They were apparently an Asian people who looked more like Central Asian
nomadic peoples (the Uzbeks, Mongols, etc.) but after centuries of
admixture with Germanic/Slavic peoples, they acquired the physical
features of those Europeans, so that now they are indistinguishable
from those in surrounding countries who speak IE languages.  

I would think the same thing happened with the Japanese.   Somewhere I
read that the Japanese language is thought to be related to the Altaic
languages (Turkish).   Maybe at some time in the distant past, the
whole of North Asia was sparsely settled by these Altaic peoples, and
they settled the Japanese islands.   Then, over thousands of years of
invasions by people from the Asian mainland (Chung Kuo, etc.) they
gradually acquired some of the physical features of those peoples.  

I am by no means an expert on these things (obviously) but your theory
of the Hungarians coming from Sumerians is very interesting, could you
please explain more of it -- factors which you think make this theory
plausible.

Thanks!
Tony