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Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Robert William Seton-Watson [new] (mind)  83 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Hunyadis ethnicity (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Dalmatia is the cradle of Croatia!!! (mind)  121 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Poetry after 1848 was Csodaszarvas /es turul (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
5 Heinz buying Kecskemeti Konzervgyar R.T. in Hungary (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Vlasi (was: Re: Re:Nestor & Vlachs I) (mind)  94 sor     (cikkei)
7 USA/Hungary - OMRI Daily Digest No.146, Jul/28/95 (mind)  128 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Poetry after 1848 was Csodaszarvas /es turul (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Robert William Seton-Watson [new] (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)


Reference : "The National Dictionary of Biography"
Oxford University Press, 1971, E.T. Williams, 
Helen M. Palmer, editors.

["The Times", 28 July, 1951 ; G.H.Bolsover, in "Proceedings 
of the British Academy", vol. xxxvii, 1951; private 
information.] text by WICKAM STEED

Time permitting, I will provide the full text later on.
Mihai Caragiu

> ===============================================================
  SETON-WATSON, ROBERT WILLIAM (1879-1951), historian, 
was born in London 20 August 1879, the only child of
William Livingston Watson, a well-to-do Scottish 
merchant in Calcutta and London and a landowner in
Scotland, and his wife, Elisabeth Lindsay, daughter 
of the Scottish genealogist George Seton. His mother
was an invalid and his upbringing was entrusted to a
female relative whose strict disciplime may have 
accounted in part for an apparent diffidence of manner
which he never quite overcome. Behind this manner lay
passionate devotion to what he felt to be right and
true, and a temperament in which his father's cautious
shrewdness and his mother's idealism were curiously
blended. Winchester, under a famous headmaster, and 
New College, Oxford, where H.A.L.Fisher was his tutor,
set their stamp on him and encouraged him to follow
his bent for exact historical research.
Before taking his degree with a first class in modern history 
in 1902 he revealed his talent by winning the Stanhope historical 
essay prize in 1901. He next spent a winter at Berlin
University, a year at Sorbonne


1922: Masaryk professor of Central European history at King's 
College, London, after having been for some years an honorary lecturer 
in East European history.

With Sir Bernard Pares he founded and edited the "Slavonic Review"
and helped the eventual establishment of the School as a
`central activity' of the university.

In 1928 : Creighton lecturer in the University of London

In 1931 : Raleigh lecturer to the British Academy

Since 1932 : Fellow of British Academy

In 1939 he delivered the Montague Burton lecture at the University College, 

In 1945 he became President of the Royal Historical Society

1945: appointed first Professor of Czechoslovak studies at Oxford.

Doctor Honoris Causa at : Prague (1919), Zagreb (1920), Bratislava (1928),
Belgrade (1928), Cluj (1930), Birmingham (1946)

In Romania (1920) the chamber of deputies suspended
its sitting to acclaim him when he appeared in the gallery...

He was a dear soul, tender and sensitive, 
tenacious and righteous, prudent and brave.
On relinquishing his chair at Oxford in 
1949 he was elected as honorary fellow
of both New College  and Brasenose and 
retired to his country home Kyle House
in the Isle of Skye - where in happier 
days he could indulge a modest taste
for yachting and sea fishing - until 
he died there 25 July 1951.
+ - Re: Hunyadis ethnicity (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

T. Kocsis > writes:

>others who weared
>Slav names. 

what a linguistic gem! Regardless accent, from forming setences,
translating idioms, can you tell fellow Romanians when they
speak/write in English?


+ - Re: Dalmatia is the cradle of Croatia!!! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Matija Gotovac ) wrote:

: Man are you some kind of idiot or something?  Take your stupid shit off 
: of this medium and talk to a wall, it would do everyone a whole lot of 
: good.  You defend HOS for most of your paper and then seem to accuse 
: Domagoj of being some sort of ustasa?  What the hell is HOS then?   
: Please, I love it when I find people like yourself who think they are so 
: bright and overanalyze a peice of shit sitting on the floor until they 
: get so damn close their face falls into it and that is exactly what you 
: are doing now.  You spent your time spewing crap and in the end made no 
: sense at all.

rapido:  Here we have a prime example of Croatian culture.  No insult 
meant to many fine men and women of Croatian origin, but this above 
"specimen" truly "represents Croatia" in its ugliest form.  This happens 
when people can not defeat one's argument and than resolve to a vulgar 
fascist-style blabber ...  

True Croatian genius, Miroslav Krleza, a writer, thinker, historian and 
overall a true genius once stated something that the above poster 
describes better than all Croatians who appeared on this network:

"God please protect me from Serbian bravery and Croatian culture !"

Amen !

A word or two about HOS.  HOS is the military wing of HSP (Croatian Party 
of Right).  That is the oldest Croatian political modern party, formed in 
19th Century.  It would be a huge effort to describe that party to the 
people, but its main trust was that Greater Serbian expansionism must be 
defeated.  That was the part of their ideology that was favorable to the 
Bosnian nation and state.  That was the part of ideology that was useful 
for a potential cooperation and mutual defence of Croatia and Bosnia from 
these exact things we have seen (1991-1995).  HSP believed that all 
people in Croatia, Dalmatia, Istria, Slavonia, Bosnia, Herzegovina, 
Dubrovnik, Sandjak, parts of Vojvodina and some smaller regions are in 
essence of the same or similar ethnic and racial origin.  That, by 
itself, is not too much of a far fetched thought, on the lines that 
Swedes, Norwegians, Danes etc. are Scandinavian people and such.  Bosnian 
nation never had too much problem with that.  The problem appeared when 
HSP called all those people Croatians, which is already an erroneous 
concept.  However, that was still understandible, and some corrections 
could have been made, and some corrections have been made by some HSP 
members who did recognize Bosnian nation during 1990's !  The 19th 
Century HSP called those people Croatians of Islamic faith.  Catholic 
Church really never liked that, because Church wanted to have only 
Croatians = Catholics  and Catholics = Croatians.  Thus, Jesuits of 19th 
Century called all Bosnians of Catholic faith: Croatians.  OK, lets have 
that, and take as it is.  

Greater problem was created when Serbs who live in Croatia were called 
Croat (albeit only citizens, I believe if I am not wrong) of Orthodox 

To cut the long story short, HSP did have intention not to team up with 
the Serbs in order to slaughter the Bosnian nation ("Muslims").  That was 
also a good part in its strategy.  

In its long history HSP had a period where its Greater Croatia ideology 
became an instrument of German and Italian fascist policy, during the 
Frankist period before and during the WW II.  That is where Ustasha 
movement comes from. 

In more than hundred years, each and every political party in this world 
can have and/or could have had a period of alliances and strategies that 
proved to be damaging both to the party and to others.  That is why it 
would have been a good strategic and tactical move on the part of HSP to 
have somewhat avoided recalling the Frankist period during the 1990, and 
continued with the useful and non-counterproductive segments of party 
profile and image.  WW II imagery and paraphenalia did hurt the party, 
while the true Nazi party, the HDZ, used HSP as a scape goat to state: 
"We are the good guys, look at the HSP, they are the bad guys."  That was 
the situation that leadership of HSP got itself into in 1990's.  Still, 
it seems that some adjustments were made.  Adjustments were made in 
Bosnia-Herzegovina, because HSP recognized (true recognition) the 
Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and its constitution and such.  by doing 
so, HSP recognized also Serbs as a constitutional entity and equal nation 
under the Bosnian law, in word and in spirit.  So, in Bosnia-Herzegovina 
HSP told its military wing, the HOS, to join the Bosnian Army fully, 
cooperatively and without dirty tricks played by HDZ/HVO in 1992 etc.  Lo 
and behold, its leadership was assassinated, its units were betrayed by 
the HVO, etc. etc.  Therefore, HSP proved to be the only political party 
that used its political and military power to defend Bosnia-Herzegovina 
and not to engage in dirty deals with chetniks/Yugoslavs and so on and so 
forth ...

That is the truth about HSP and its involvement, that nobody can deny.  
To accuse someone of being (or not being) "Ustasha" is both historically, 
politically and factually almost meaningless and redundant.  I personally 
do not like when Bosnian newspapers call HVO ustashas, because they are 
not.  They are merely a fifth column of Yugoslav Army.  Some Croatians 
ridiculed them as "red ustashas", which is just about correct as it 

As far as my writing goes, it is true and appropriate for the people who 
deal with facts.  I never expected some Croatian geek to respect my 
writing.  That would be almost imposible anyways, because true nature of 
Croatian intervention is being exposed by this participant on this 
newsgroup, and that is something that Tudjman followers do not like to 
see exposed.  

: By the way both of my parents are Dalmatian and very much Croatian 
: regardless of who the president is.  Why don;t you stick to a topic you 
: know about and stop trying to be a Croat.  You were nothing for your 
: whole life and stop trying to be something you will never be...a Croat.  
: Yugoslavs should just forget about this whole area and shutup.

rapido: It is patent stupidity to call this contributor Croat, because it 
is obvious even to a moron that this contributor writes from the 
standpoint of Bosnian opinion.  All my life I was just about evrything 
that I wanted to be, and most of all, I was more civilized and educated 
human being than the above poster will ever even come close ... actually 
he is drifting away by miles ...  

Me being a Croat ?  Nein danke !

+ - Re: Poetry after 1848 was Csodaszarvas /es turul (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Jeliko ) wrote:

: AND books writes:

: > BTW: avoid mgy poetry after 1848! :)

: > janos

: Apparently you are not familiar with your namesake Arany's poetry after 
: 1848. I highly recommend it.

: Regards,Jeliko

omigosh! you are abs. CORRECT! my gist was historic re: turul, sumerian and
wild buck legends... etc...

AFTER 1848 there are at LEAST Ady, Dezso: Szabo, Zsida Jeno:, and 
Gyoni Ge'za.... besides Arany Ja'nos....

Does that clarify thinks, Jeliko? (gosh i HATE to be corrected)

OK, i cheated, i looked them up in Veremund' To'th's "A Magar Irodalom 
To:rte'nete"... (circa 1960s, Great book!)

Thanks for your note... but the original post's quest for ancient mgy. 
oral folk tales remains intriguing... not so?
+ - Heinz buying Kecskemeti Konzervgyar R.T. in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I notice that Heinz is buying the Hungarian canning company
Kecskemeti Konzervgayar R.T. which makes 90 percent of the baby
food sold in Hungary. It also cans sweet corn, peas, tomato paste and 
powder, pickles and jams under the KK brand, exporting widely.

Mike W.

Michael Willett, EE

Storage Computer Corp.
11 Riverside Street
Nashua, NH 03062
Tel. 603-880-3005

:::I/O-accelerated, very fast disk arrays for all SCSI systems to 1,000 GB:::
+ - Re: Vlasi (was: Re: Re:Nestor & Vlachs I) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Liviu Iordache and T Kocsis writes:
> >First, Jeliko has mentioned virtually no bibliographical
> >references that support his interpretation of the
> >Russian Primary Chronicle. I provided the above example
> >to suggest that his unsuported claim is derived from
> >a similarly suspect interpretation of Gesta Hungarorum
> >(see Gyorffy, 1970).

I hope you (Liviu) have read all three parts of the responses. Including 
the extensive referncse that the Franks were controlling what is now 
western Hungary. (My system or I goofed and the response went out with 
"None" in the header)

> >The locality was probably founded by the German Longobards
> >late in the 6th century. The Longobards were gradually
> >romanized so that in 774 Charlemagne conquered practically
> >an "Italian" people. Therefore, it is no surprise if the
> >Magyars called "Olasz" (Italians) either the 9th century or
> >present-day people of Francavilla.

> So we found  nevertheless Romance speaking Frankish citizens
> in the East Frank Empire, didn't we ?  You doubted and tried
> to refute their existence [see below]. Do you still think that
> the Hungarians had no ground to call Vlach/Olasz these sub-
> jects of the Franks ?
> These romance speaking settlements, presumably strongholds
> on the frontier with its continuously present military for-
> ces and administration meant the Frank Empire for the Slavs,
> and later for the Hungarians.

> /*---*/
> >By 800 the Germanic-speaking people east of the Rhine
> >had been incorporated into the Frankish  empire: in 843
> >they formed together a separate kingdom under the
> >Carolingian ruler Louis the German. The famous Oaths of
> >Strasbourg are pertinent here because one can prove what
> >was language was spoken by the East Franks. 

As long as we are writing about who called whom what lets clear that the 
Byzantines consistently referred to themselves as *Romans*, however they 
did call the Frankish lands and particularly the eastern Frankish lands as
Frangia (actually Fraggia) as late as the end of the X century, at which 
time according to Liviu they should have called them Germans. As an example
the "Correspondance of Leo Metropolitan of Synada and Syncellus" who was on 
a mission to Rome and to Otto III's court (to arrange a marriage between 
the daughter of the Byzantine emperor and Otto III in letters 2 line 16,
3 line 8, 4 line 13 and 9 line 5 consistently calls Otto's realm as Frangia
Examples " We traveled to Frangia during all of August, september, and 
October. We returned during the next three months and stayed in Rome for 
four months..." " we went after a second and spent three months away from 
Rome in Frangia and discussed the marriage agreement; and, unless we had 
prevented it, there would be no reason for the marriage not being brought 
to an easy and successful conclusion in a day." and no he was not referring 
to visits to other places because he for other visits or locations refers 
to Gallia and Longobardia. The correspondance took place in the 996 to 998 
timeframe. (Dumbarton Oaks Research Library and Collection, 1985).

Furthermore in the "Nicholas I Patriarch of Constantinople Letters" he 
aalso uses the Frangia for the (according to Liviu German courts) realms
of the German-Roman empire. By the way Nicholas was born in 852, so we are 
again covering the time frame which is of interest to the discussion. 
Letter 32 in the second half of 912 to the "Most Holy Pope of the Elder 
Rome" line 78 and line 81 clearly refers to "Fragnia" and "Fragnos" in 
relation to Lodoicos, i.e. Louis the Blind.

We have already discussed that Porphyrogenitus also states that the the 
west of the Hungarians are the Franks.

Thus the Byzantines records use Franks for the by then Germanized east 
Frankish domains. It is true that among the Slavs the Moravians, Croatians 
and Czechs who had  immediate contact with the folks to the west of them
were calling the Germanic population by other names also. However the 
Bulgarians and through the Bulgarian church contact, the Russians did not 
make that distinction until much later and in those days followed the 
Byzantine names. Thus it should not come as a surprise that they are 
talking about Franks or in some cases using the word for Latin speakers, 
i.e. Vlachs. The Byzantines started to use the Vlach name for Latin 
speakers also, but later when all hope of being a Roman empire was given up 
and all Latin domains were lost and it became solely a Greek empire.(Anna 
Comnena times)

By the way Liviu stated that other Byzantine sources than Porphyrogenitus 
did not use Turkoi for the Hungarians, well Nicholas does refer to them as 
"western Turkoi" in his correspondance with Symeon the Bulgarian car 
(archon). As a matter of fact he is writing about a Byzantine, Hungarian, 
Russian, Alan and Pecheneg alliance against the Bulgarians in 922, so the 
enmity between the Pechengs and the Hungarians by 922 permitted cooperative 
action. This is an example I am refering to when claiming that the earlier 
war between the Pechenegs and the Hungarians was not as great as indicated 
in some chronicles.

+ - USA/Hungary - OMRI Daily Digest No.146, Jul/28/95 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

*** Greetings from Hungarian-American List ***
      ***    http://mineral.umd.edu/hungary/     ***
      ***     mailto:        ***

Chairman Laszlo Nagy on 27 July expressed regret that the Slovak
government has not taken a stand on the recent attacks on Roma by
skinheads in Ziar nad Hronom (see OMRI Daily Digest, 25 July 1995). Nagy
argued that the current government "is neither able nor willing to
seriously oppose such undesirable acts." He singled out the Slovak
National Party, which, he said, "encourages such hatred" through some of
its statements, Sme reported. A local police official told Sme that two
youths are currently under investigation in connection with the attacks
but that the charges have not yet been classified as attempted murder.
-- Sharon Fisher, OMRI, Inc.

Association of Hungarians organized a meeting on 27 July in the
Hungarian town of Debrecen supporting unrestricted mother-tongue use for
Hungarian minorities in Romania, Slovakia, and Serbia, international
media reported. Sandor Csoori of the WAH stressed that whoever questions
nationality schools and equal rights for minority languages "is
attacking universal human values." Coexistence Chairman Miklos Duray,
who was the only leader of Slovakia's Hungarian coalition to attend the
gathering, criticized the current Slovak government for its efforts "to
eradicate our language." The Slovak cabinet was criticized in particular
for its draft law on the state language and plans to implement
"alternative" (bilingual) education. The meeting was attended by several
representatives of the Hungarian parliament and broadcast live on
Hungarian satellite television. -- Sharon Fisher, OMRI, Inc.

Hungarian Democratic Federation of Romania (UDMR), took the opportunity
to call the recently adopted Romanian education law "cultural genocide"
against ethnic Magyars, Radio Bucharest reported. UDMR Honorary Chairman
Laszlo Tokes was quoted as saying that Romania is currently "waging a
war against the Hungarian language." Traian Chebeleu, a spokesman for
Romanian President Ion Iliescu, said the accusations of the UDMR leaders
were "totally groundless" and part of a disinformation campaign aimed at
damaging Romania's image abroad. Iliescu later said that the Debrecen
meeting was feeding "primitive, extremist, and nationalist feelings." --
Dan Ionescu, OMRI, Inc.

Vladimir Meciar, speaking at the end of his two-day official visit to
Bucharest, said his country is respecting individual rights of citizens
belonging to ethnic minorities. He added that the Council of Europe's
Recommendation No. 1201 should not be interpreted as recognizing
collective rights for minorities. He also said he hopes that the terms
of the future Romanian-Hungarian treaty will be "better" than those of
the Slovak-Hungarian one. Romania's treatment of its Slovak minority
shows that Romania "promotes a correct minority policy," he noted.
Romanian Premier Nicolae Vacaroiu said that his country will not agree
to including claims for collective minority rights and territorial
autonomy in its treaty with Hungary. -- Dan Ionescu, OMRI, Inc.

Vrioni and Albania's creditors have agreed to cut the country's foreign
debt and restructure the remainder. Commercial debts will be reduced
from $500 million to $100 million. Banks now may swap their debts for
20% of the face value of the debt or exchange them at 100% of the face
value for 30-year bonds without interest. The principle is backed by
Zero-coupon 30-year U.S. Treasury bonds, which the Albanian government
will buy in August, international agencies reported on 27 July. --
Fabian Schmidt, OMRI, Inc.

Following the U.S. Senate's vote in favor of lifting the UN arms embargo
against Bosnia-Herzegovina, NATO Secretary-General Willy Claes, on a
private visit to Athens on 27 July, said such a move would widen the
Balkan conflict, international agencies reported. In such a case, he
said, "the United Nations would lose its credibility" and 50,000
peacekeepers would be needed. "There is no military solution,
negotiations are the only solution," Claes was quoted as saying.
Government Spokesman Evangelos Venizelos the same day criticized the
Senate vote, AFP reported. He said the war in Bosnia must be solved by
long-term political and diplomatic means. Venizelos added that Bosnian
Serb leader Radovan Karadzic should not be excluded from the peace
process, despite being indicted by the International Criminal Tribunal
for the former Yugoslavia, saying Karadzic has to remain a party to any
talks seeking a settlement for Bosnia. -- Stefan Krause, OMRI, Inc.

against the Bosnian Serbs, President Boris Yeltsin has sent a new
Bosnian peace proposal to members of the Contact Group, Interfax
reported on 28 July. The plan calls for direct talks between both sides
in the conflict, after which UN sanctions against Serbia would be
lifted, and rump Yugoslavia would recognize Bosnia in exchange. Western
officials quoted by AFP described the plan as "not very realistic."
Russian Foreign Minister Andrei Kozyrev, speaking in Hanoi, criticized
the recent U.S. Senate vote to unilaterally lift the UN arms embargo
against the Bosnian government, which he said is "totally
incomprehensible." A Foreign Ministry spokesman later criticized UN
Secretary General Boutros Boutros Ghali's decision to simplify the
procedures for authorizing NATO air strikes in support of UN
peacekeepers, saying that additional air strikes would only "lead to an
escalation of violence." -- Scott Parrish, OMRI, Inc.

RUSSIAN SPACE BOOSTER UNVEILED IN U.S. A U.S. company unveiled what it
called "the most technically advanced Russian rocket engine to enter the
United States" on 26 July. A Pratt & Whitney Space Propulsion Operations
press release said it had received the RD-120 rocket engine from the
Energomash Scientific and Production Association in Khimki and planned
to test the engine using live fire later this year. The two companies
have signed a statement of intent to form a joint venture to develop a
version of the RD-120 for commercial use worldwide to send satellites
into low earth orbit. The new boosters will be manufactured in Russia
and Ukraine. -- Doug Clarke, OMRI, Inc.
[As of 12:00 CET]
[As of 1200 CET]
Compiled by Jan Cleave
Compiled by Victor Gomez

This material was reprinted with permission of the Open Media 
Research Institute, a Prague-based nonprofit organization.

       Copyright (C) 1995 Open Media Research Institute, Inc.
                    All rights reserved.

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+ - Re: Poetry after 1848 was Csodaszarvas /es turul (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

AND books writes:

> Thanks for your note... but the original post's quest for ancient mgy. 
> oral folk tales remains intriguing... not so?

Mayhap they came from totemic names. In many cultures it was not proper to 
refer to the tribe's totem by its actual name, and a descriptive word was 
used rather than the actual name. I always wondered about "names" like
szarvas, farkas, which are descriptive, but certainly not exclusive 
descriptions for these animals. There were other animals which had 
prominent horns or tails without being given these names. BTW, I never knew 
the derivation for turul, but the original word for eagle was bese which 
may have been the totem of the Pecheneges *Besenyo*. Too many other things 
to do.