Bela Batkay writes:

> I may be quite wrong about the author of "Szol a kakas mar," but my attri-
> bution is not based on a "theory"--I heard it from the current rabbi of
> the Debrecen Jewish community last year.  Naturally, *he* could also be
> wrong, but both the words and the music to the song can be found in a
> recently published collection of Yiddish songs and poetry from Transylvania,
> entitled ,,Erde'lyi jiddis ne'pko"lte'szet", Europa Konyvkiado, Budapest,
> 1994, p. 192.

I am sorry.  I did not mean to denigrate your attribution by calling it
a "theory".  It is just my Feyerabendian epistemological anarchism showing.
Theories come in all consistencies, from rock solid to lime jello.  Cf. the
Heliocentric Theory, or the Theory of Relativity, or Quantum Theory, or the
Theory of Everything.

Moricz took great care to avoid linguistic anachronisms in the "Erdely"
trilogy, and use authentic 16th century vocabulary and grammar.  Besides,
he was on friendly terms with Bartok and his ethnomusicologist students,
so it's hard to see how he could be mistaken about the song being 400 years
old.  What could really be useful here is to track down the paper by
Szabolcsi mentioned in the liner notes.  I might just do that one of these
days.

-----
Gabor Fencsik

In article >, Doug Hormann >
writes:

>Tovarisch Joe,
>
>        You'll have to forgive Sam.  Nobody's been by to clean his cage
in
>awhile and it's making him kinda cranky:-)
>
>Doug
>
>
>

Joe, are you the one responsible for Doug's mistaken belief that he's
actually clever? You know, sometimes your sense of humor veers off into
the realm of sickness.
Sam Stowe

And another series of questions for you, Joe. Why do you and the rest of
your merry little cell of absolute idealists always express your longings
for utopia in political terms? There are plenty of human activities and
groupings that exist outside the political structure. Why not exert your
energies in that direction? If you're so offended by the injustices you
see around you, why not do what you can at the street level to relieve
your fellow human's suffering? Why is it always the ballot box or nothing
with you? You sure have an obsessively narrow sense of what your potential
scope of action could be.

Also, if Marxism-Leninism is so damned scientific and accurate, why not
just implement it at the corporate level? No need to take over the
government. No one gives a hoot how you organize your corporation just as
long as you pay your taxes and obey the various occupational safety,
environmental, consumer and other regulations placed on you by local,
state (in your case provincial) and federal governments? You wanna be
Vladimir Ilych in your own break room? Go for it. Why no major companies
organized on Marxist-Leninist lines in this country or Canada, other than
Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream? (Hormann content -- the preceding was a joke,
Doug. Do you need me to put in a funky little symbol after every one so
you'll catch them?) Seems like if Marxism-Leninism were so natural, it
would grow from the grassroots up. Of course, you can always trot out the
old conspiracy theories -- THEY wouldn't allow a Marxist-Leninist
corporation to exist, THEY use their economic power to keep the masses
down, THEY will always try to thwart the natural progression of history
toward a Marxist-Leninist worker's utopia. Say, aren't you the one who's
always so flamboyantly irreligious? Why are you chanting the Mass in this
particular church? Back to you, Boy Wonder.
Sam Stowe

P.S. -- Just for you, Joe: "If you wear your heart on your sleeve, then
you've obviously been in an explosion." -- George Carlin

In article >,  (Stowewrite)
says:

>...[snip]..                                                 ....So what
happened to
>the true M-Ls? When did true M-Ls get thrown out of fraternal democratic
>socialist people's paradise and alien space Marxists take their places? If
>alien space Marxists were running things, why not jettison M-L language
>and ideology? Why continue to cloak their every action in M-L language
>when that just gives fraternal socialist workers in places like Csepel the
>opportunity to compare the word to the deed and come to the conclusion
>that true M-L proletarian leadership had been replaced by evil alien space
>Marxists who act like capitalist imperialists?

All the so-called MLs hijacked the original ML agenda which they used to
justify (i.e., cloak) their less than ML activities. Of course they couldn't
jettison the ML language or ideology! That would have thrown away the cloak
(justification for grabbing and holding power.) Nothing alien about it: just
plain ol' boring human nature. Orwell's *1984* explains it very succinctly.

>Perhaps there were no evil alien space Marxists. Maybe the people running
>things in Budapest between 1946-47 and 1989 really believed M-L rhetoric
>they tossed around. In that case, they did try to honestly implement M-L
>and it didn't work. Or they didn't believe any of what they said and just
>raped the masses for four decades and used M-L to try and disguise the
>fact....[snip]

Naturally, many wanted to believe in the ML stuff. Many hoped to implement
it. It was never really possible, because, like the Krell on Altair-4,
they forgot about the ID!!!! Now do you see????? ML is a fantastic theory,
like all kinds of stuff people dream up, but when it comes to the crunch,
all the basic impulses that come from the cess pool of human nature pervert
the idealism (I'm not even too sure about calling it idealism, but it will
do for now...) that generate such ideas....this is why I don't believe in
politico-economic theories. Simply being a shrewd observer of human nature
is much more to the point.

Could go on, but I reckon you get the drift, by now....

Regards,

George

* George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK *
* Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address:  *
*** Independent Commodore Products Users' Group UK * C=64 stuff wanted ***
NW London Computer Club ** Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list!

Stowewrite wrote:
>
> In article >, Doug Hormann >
> writes:
>
> >Tovarisch Joe,
> >
> >        You'll have to forgive Sam.  Nobody's been by to clean his cage
> in
> >awhile and it's making him kinda cranky:-)
> >
> >Doug
> >
> >
> >
>
> Joe, are you the one responsible for Doug's mistaken belief that he's
> actually clever? You know, sometimes your sense of humor veers off into
> the realm of sickness.
> Sam Stowe

Sam,  Since like Joe and Eva you refuse to get a life, please, at least
get a sense of humor.  It was a joke Sammy! As far as your previous
post, I've finally figured out who you write for, The Weekly World News.

Regards,

Doug

PS:  I have to admit the alien M-L thing is sorta cute.

In article >,  wrote:

> Does anyone on this LISTSERV live in or near the town of Kisvarda?  We
> would like to learn more about it and get postcards, travel brochures,
> etc.
> The Genealogy Bug -- POB 6764, Knoxville, TN  37914-0764  USA
>            Home of the Acuff Family Archives
> Genealogy and History Research Specialist in East Tennessee Counties


My wife and her extended family are from Kisvarda!

--
Robert Gelb, Robert Gelb and Associates Inc.
12 Bradenton Drive,Willowdale,Ontario M2H 1Y5, Canada
(905)940-2380, (905)946-1734 FAX
e-mail: 
- Venture Capital Placements
- Business Plan Preparations and Evaluations,                           -
Business Management and Financial Consulting
- Mergers and acquisitions

In article >, Doug Hormann >
writes:

>Sam,  Since like Joe and Eva you refuse to get a life, please, at least
>get a sense of humor.  It was a joke Sammy! As far as your previous
>post, I've finally figured out who you write for, The Weekly World News.
>
>Regards,
>
>Doug
>
>PS:  I have to admit the alien M-L thing is sorta cute.
>
>

Oh, no! This isn't where you're going to recapitulate your entire life
story again for the twentieth time, is it? Say, how's that new gig working
out with the organ grinder? I thought you looked pretty sharp with that
little hat perched on your head and that tin cup you were carrying while
you danced. But, man, were the mall cops cheesed when you whizzed in the
fountain on your break. They'll work you over but good if you try that
when you go to Budapest.
Sam Stowe

Weekly World News Content -- Doug Hormann is Elvis's two-headed love
child.

In article >,  (George
Szaszvari) astutely observes:

>Naturally, many wanted to believe in the ML stuff. Many hoped to
implement
>it. It was never really possible, because, like the Krell on Altair-4,
>they forgot about the ID!!!! Now do you see????? ML is a fantastic
theory,
>like all kinds of stuff people dream up, but when it comes to the crunch,
>all the basic impulses that come from the cess pool of human nature
pervert
>the idealism (I'm not even too sure about calling it idealism, but it
will
>do for now...) that generate such ideas....this is why I don't believe in

>politico-economic theories. Simply being a shrewd observer of human
nature
>is much more to the point.
>
>Could go on, but I reckon you get the drift, by now....
>
>Regards,
>
>George
>
>
Yup, and I pretty much agree with you. It's like Reinhold Niebuhr said --
humans may well be perfectable taken as individuals, but their individual
faults are magnified all out of proportion when they're joined into a
collectivity. He also called absolute idealism the philosophical high road
and empiricism the low road. Hey, Joe, I'll be in Scotland afore ye!
Sam Stowe

P.S. -- The Krell on Altair 4. What a great film!

I am quite annoyed at the editors of the *Magyar Zsido Lexikon,"
normally a treasure of information concerning Hungarian Jewry. But they
goofed this time! Under "Nagykallo" I found quite a bit about the history of
the congregation, including the information that its first rabbi was Taub
Eizik, who became "world famous" under the name of "cadik of Kallo." Next to
Taub Eizik name the encyclopedia clearly states that Taub Eizik has an entry
of his own, and for further information the reader is sent to Eizik. And
that's where the trouble is. I couldn't find him under Eizik. In desperation
I even tried "Taub," needless to say without success. When I looked under
"cadik" I found out that this is a name which is given to persons who are
considered to be "saints, miracle makers."

        In any case, it seems that the cadik of Kallo was very well known
"among the religious Jews of Hungary." By the way, he was active in the
eighteenth century, not the nineteenth. It was during his tenure Nagykallo
(pop. 8,232 in 1920) built its first temple (1800). His jurisdiction
expanded beyond Nagykallo and his title was "chief rabbi of Szabolcs County."

        That all very nice but we still don't know whether he is the
composer of the song or not.

        Eva Balogh

You wrote:
>
>In article >,  wrote:
>
>> Does anyone on this LISTSERV live in or near the town of Kisvarda?
We
>> would like to learn more about it and get postcards, travel
brochures,
>> etc.
>> The Genealogy Bug -- POB 6764, Knoxville, TN  37914-0764  USA
>>            Home of the Acuff Family Archives
>> Genealogy and History Research Specialist in East Tennessee Counties
>
>
>My wife and her extended family are from Kisvarda!
>
>--
>Robert Gelb, Robert Gelb and Associates Inc.
>12 Bradenton Drive,Willowdale,Ontario M2H 1Y5, Canada
>(905)940-2380, (905)946-1734 FAX
>e-mail: 
>- Venture Capital Placements
>- Business Plan Preparations and Evaluations,
 -
>Business Management and Financial Consulting
>- Mergers and acquisitions
>
If I am not mistaken, New York Governor George Pataki's family is from
Kisvarda also.  He has spoken about it several times and last year he
made an emotional visit there with his family.


Charles Vamossy
New York Hungarian House

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 12:25:06 -0400
From: L-Soft list server at GWUVM (1.8b) >
To: 
Subject: Rejected posting to 

You  are  not   authorized  to  send  mail  to  the   HUNGARY  list  from  your
 account.

Tudja-e valaki miert????????????????????????

  You might  be authorized  to send  to the  list from
another of  your accounts,  or perhaps  when using  another mail  program which
generates slightly  different addresses, but  LISTSERV has no way  to associate
this other account or address with yours. If you need assistance or if you have
any question regarding the policy of  the HUNGARY list, please contact the list
owners: .

------------------------ Rejected message (35 lines) --------------------------
Received: from GWUVM (SMTPUSER) by GWUVM.GWU.EDU (Mailer R2.10 ptf000) with
 BSMTP id 4628; Fri, 29 Mar 96 12:23:44 EDT
Received: from skysrv.Pha.Jhu.EDU by gwuvm.gwu.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP;
   Fri, 29 Mar 96 12:22:58 EDT
Received: from skysrv
           by skysrv.Pha.Jhu.EDU; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 12:25:12 -0500
Received: from mail.internet.com (yipee-p.internet.com)
           by skysrv.Pha.Jhu.EDU; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 12:24:13 -0500
Sender: 
Received: from yipee.internet.com by mail.internet.com (8.6.12/InetCo-Hub-1.0)
 	id MAA26610; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 12:24:13 -0500
Received: from coyote.rain.org by mail.internet.com (8.6.12/InetCo-Hub-1.0)
 	id MAA26605; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 12:24:12 -0500
Received: (from ) by coyote.rain.org (8.6.12/CSE) id JAA02940;
 Fri, 29 Mar 1996 09:22:40 -0800
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 09:22:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Robert Hetzron >
To: HIX HUNGARY >
Subject: Re: Latin servus
In-Reply-To: >
Message-Id: >
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Should I remind Eva Balogh that Latin was spoken in Hungary until the
middle of the last century? That is a good source of servus > szervusz at
any time till then. Of course this greeting was used in the German
speaking word, and there may have been an influence. When there was a big
discussion on that some time ago, I argued that szia is definitely of
Austrian origin. The way it is pronounced in Vienna could have very well
be heard as sziasz by Hungarians.	Sziasztok,		Robert

At 08:26 PM 3/29/96 -0500, Sam Stowe, in a flashy display of rhetorical
savvy, replete with half-baked double-entendres that reveals a disturbing
lack of intellectual rigor that is all too common amongst graduates of the
American educational system, rapaciously writes:

>Joe:
>Let's take Hungary as an example. For over 40 years, a group of people
>calling themselves Marxist-Leninists (I think I'll adopt your convention
>and just use M-L from here on out) ran the show from Budapest.
>Periodically, they imprisoned other people for not being sufficiently M-L
>or for deviating from "true" M-L. In 1956, thousands of Hungarians die
>after fraternal army of watch-snatchers sails into town to end bourgeois
>challenge to M-L utopia. Watch-snatchers stay till 1990s, but allow
>Hungarian speakers who claim to be faithful to M-L to run the country.
>Now, are we to assume that the true, honest-to-Engels M-Ls were displaced
>from the government at some point during that 40+ year run and that faux
>M-L "pod" proletarians took control of the government? So what happened to
>the true M-Ls? When did true M-Ls get thrown out of fraternal democratic
>socialist people's paradise and alien space Marxists take their places? If
>alien space Marxists were running things, why not jettison M-L language
>and ideology? Why continue to cloak their every action in M-L language
>when that just gives fraternal socialist workers in places like Csepel the
>opportunity to compare the word to the deed and come to the conclusion
>that true M-L proletarian leadership had been replaced by evil alien space
>Marxists who act like capitalist imperialists?
>
>Perhaps there were no evil alien space Marxists. Maybe the people running
>things in Budapest between 1946-47 and 1989 really believed M-L rhetoric
>they tossed around. In that case, they did try to honestly implement M-L
>and it didn't work. Or they didn't believe any of what they said and just
>raped the masses for four decades and used M-L to try and disguise the
>fact. Them's your choices, pal, unless you're into rabid conspiracy
>theories. So, you really want to give political power to what constitutes
>either a group of wankers, lying thieves or space aliens? Oh, Canada!
>Sam Stowe

Oh, brother!  Where do I start?

Sam:
I wanted you to give me specific examples of what M-Lers did that were
unique.  You haven't done that.  And, as I said before, you won't be able to.

What you've done is give a brief outline of state oppression and enforced
conformity in Hungary.  As sad and as tragic as those events were, they are
not examples of Marxist-Leninist uniqueness.  Oppression and conformity are
as old as civilization.  The official name for it is irrelevant.

Your concept of "evil alien space Marxists" is your best bet for proving me
wrong but you'd better have damn good evidence.  You might have to ask Doug
for help.  Good luck.

Do you want to give it another try?

Joe Szalai

Eva Balogh, amateur political scientist and dilettante mathematician, using
her expertise as an etymologist (or, as she would say, ethymologist), writes
in Hungary#622:

>Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker, using her expertise as an anthropologist, says the
>following ...

Now, how was that saying about people living in glass houses?


Regards,

Ferenc

In article >,  (Stowewrite)
says:

>Yup, and I pretty much agree with you. It's like Reinhold Niebuhr said --
>humans may well be perfectable taken as individuals, but their individual
>faults are magnified all out of proportion when they're joined into a
>collectivity. He also called absolute idealism the philosophical high road
>and empiricism the low road. Hey, Joe, I'll be in Scotland afore ye!
>Sam Stowe
>
>P.S. -- The Krell on Altair 4. What a great film!

Yeah, (Forbidden Planet) really terrific!

At Your Service,

Robbie the Robot :-)

* George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK *
* Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address:  *
*** Independent Commodore Products Users' Group UK * C=64 stuff wanted ***
NW London Computer Club ** Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list!

Stowewrite wrote:
>
> In article >, Doug Hormann >
> writes:
>
> >Sam,  Since like Joe and Eva you refuse to get a life, please, at least
> >get a sense of humor.  It was a joke Sammy! As far as your previous
> >post, I've finally figured out who you write for, The Weekly World News.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Doug
> >

> Oh, no! This isn't where you're going to recapitulate your entire life
> story again for the twentieth time, is it? Say, how's that new gig working
> out with the organ grinder? I thought you looked pretty sharp with that
> little hat perched on your head and that tin cup you were carrying while
> you danced. But, man, were the mall cops cheesed when you whizzed in the
> fountain on your break. They'll work you over but good if you try that
> when you go to Budapest.
> Sam Stowe
>
> Weekly World News Content -- Doug Hormann is Elvis's two-headed love
> child.

Gee Sammy,

It appears that I've touched a nerve.

Regards,

Doug