Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 676
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-05-23
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Travel in SErbia (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Megalomanians and Ruritanians (mind)  61 sor     (cikkei)
3 RE>Szabadsagharc (mind)  40 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: [61] PARLIAMENT RECOGNIZES SAME-SEX COMMON-LAW RELA (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Travel in SErbia (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Travel in SErbia (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: RE>Szabadsagharc (mind)  52 sor     (cikkei)
8 Eva revisionism (mind)  33 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Travel in SErbia (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
10 A few afterthough to Tamas Kocsis's piece (mind)  52 sor     (cikkei)
11 Just me! (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
12 I stop... (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Travel in SErbia (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I've heard about these robberies of sleeping
train-passengers, but it never happened to me
our to anyone I know. Had any of them really
happened, and where?

Eva Durant
+ - Re: Megalomanians and Ruritanians (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

This is from an article by John-Paul Himka, forwarded by Hugh Agnew from
the mythical Habsburg list, where experts on the Empire of Megalomania
congregate:

> Slovaks and Hungarians were concerned about problems of
> self-definition-through-the-perhaps-other. What is a Hungarian?  Only a
> Magyar? A linguistically Magyarone person of Slovak ethnic heritage? An
> individual with a bilingual, bicultural formation? A similarly bicultural
> individual who also seeks political autonomy for northern Hungary? These
> were among the items on the agenda of negotiations, and how they were
> ultimately settled determined in part what a Hungarian was and what a
> Slovak was. [...] There were certainly historical moments when the
> possibility of Jewish inclusion into the German or Polish nation seemed
> likely; but in both cases the negotiations failed, and the failure was
> part and parcel of the emergence of a new, more agressive national
> self-conceptualization on the part of the respective Megalomanians.

One must be careful with the terminology here.  Gellner's brilliant
little essay about Megalomania and the process of Ruritanian national
awakening is an allegory.  Allegories do get taken a bit too literally
sometimes.  There are two concepts in the paragraph above: one is the
"self-definition-through-the-perhaps-other", the other is "negotiation".
The first of these is fine, although for the Ruritanian case it should
perhaps be called "self-definition-through-the-projected-image-of-the-
perhaps-other".  The megalomalians' notions of Pan-Slavic threats
(or fears of Germanic hegemony, or every megalomanian scumbag's favorite,
the threat from you-know-who -- hint, hint!) has very little to do with
who the Slavs or Germans are, what are their thoughts and aspirations,
whether they are busy assimilating, or preserving their separateness,
or doing both, or neither.  The essential thing is that a threat must
exist.  Without a threat, nationalism is dead meat.  People will start
giggling.  So you need to find someone to fill the slot.  It almost
does not matter who it is going to be.

On the other hand, the term "negotiation" does not describe very well
what was (and is) happening in these situations.  Even in an allegorical
context, the word "negotiation" suggests a conscious process in which both
parties envisage some kind of mutually acceptable end result.  Negotiation
assumes a dialogue of some sort, where ideas and formulations are
exchanged, listened to, chewed over, considered, rejected, or accepted.
The "who is a Hungarian" question did matter in the 19th century.  It was
talked about -- or better, shouted about -- but what was taking place
cannot be called a negotiation, or a dialog.  "Parallel monologues" is
a better description.

>From Hugh Agnew's rejoinder to the same article:

> ... The other question concerns the compatibility of nationalist politics
> and liberal democracy.  Can the state be both a "nation-state" and liberal
> and democratic, if it is not ethnically homogeneous?  The collapse of the
> "common Hungarian homeland" and the fortunes of the minorities (and liberal
> democracy) in its successors suggest a pessimistic answer.

A negative answer, yes, but not necessary a pessimistic one.  Since the
"ethnically homogeneous" part can only be fixed by ethnic cleansing, we are
reduced to choosing between dropping democracy, or dropping the nation-state.
So there is a pessimistic answer, and also an optimistic one.

-----
Gabor Fencsik

+ - RE>Szabadsagharc (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Balogh Eva wrote:
>I was the head of the student association at my dormitory;

You mean you were a leader of the DISZ, the stalinist youth
association ?? This'd explain a lot to me.

>I was a member of the Budapest Revolutionary Student Council;

Well, when my father went first in to the University (BME)
during those days, his first impression was very depressing.
He found on the steps of the entrance a DISZ leader, one of
the worst blood-mouthed communist one, dressed as Che Gueva-
ra, from tip to toe in army green,decorated with innumerable
hand grenades, and loads of machine gun ammunitions,shouting
orders.

>I would have been a part of the Imre Nagy trial

I believe, you overemphasize a little bit your importance,
don't you ?

>if I hadn't decided to emigrate in the middle of December

Of course it was a wise decision, 'cose you were DISZ leader
before, and after the revolution the more and most stupids
among you ran back to daddy (the Party) to compete in to be-
tray each other.

On the other hand my father was a member of Nemzetorseg (Na-
tional Guard), he did not see no one DISZ leader where the
youths passed their leasure time with some shooting. He did
not emigrate either. He biked till Hegyeshalom with a friend,
but changed his mind there and turned back. No one denounced
him later. He attributed to this beside the fact that in his
unit everybody was such a naive,apolitical losers as him,all
the guys who knew him there left Hungary after the "regret-
table events".

cordially,
Tamas
+ - Re: [61] PARLIAMENT RECOGNIZES SAME-SEX COMMON-LAW RELA (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 08:26 PM 5/21/96 -0700, Andras Kornai, wrote:

>I can only applaud this law both for what it accomplishes, which is raising
>a minority from a legally disadvantaged status to the level of ordinary
>citizens, and for what it leaves out, which is adoption. In my personal view
>the general level of prejudice in Hungary is such that the idea of same-sex
>couples adopting children would have raised considerable outcry, possibly to
>the point that the issue would have simmered to become a campaign issue two
>years hence, with revocation of the law in the cards. A good compromise on
>this matter is much better than nothing, which is what the US has.  On
>another note, it looks from the count like Fidesz voted against it. If so,
>they succeeded in losing the last shreds of their liberal heritage, but no
>doubt gaining the symapthy of Dr. Aids in the process:-(

Great news, Andras.  I applaud the law even though I would have favoured
adoption rights for same-sex couples.  Once people understand what adoption
rights mean, the law will change.  In Canada, gays and lesbians can adopt
children, but only as individuals, since no one asks the perspective
parents' sexual orientation.  This law will no doubt change soon to reflect
the major change in our human rights law.  Gay marriages and adoptions are
just around the corner.  It will be interesting to see if other nations will
respect Canadian law.  What would happen if a legally married gay couple
from Canada went to work for a large multinational in Hungary?  Would they
get the same benifits and rights as a heterosexual couple?

As for Fidesz, they were a young and liberal party.  They aged prematurely
and became reactionary.  However, they had great election posters when they
first ran for office.  Now, they no longer listen to their heart.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Travel in SErbia (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Yes, it happened to a sleeping friend in Spain; and to me on a Brazilian bus.

Train and bus robberies happen most anywhere in the world, particularly in
third world countries or places of turmoil.

You don't even have to go to sleep.  Just look the other way for 5 seconds.
It is (well-) organized crime for the most part.

Traveler, beware!

Martha
+ - Re: Travel in SErbia (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I'm still waiting for a Central/Eastern European story...

Eva D.


>
> Yes, it happened to a sleeping friend in Spain; and to me on a Brazilian bus.
>
> Train and bus robberies happen most anywhere in the world, particularly in
> third world countries or places of turmoil.
>
> You don't even have to go to sleep.  Just look the other way for 5 seconds.
> It is (well-) organized crime for the most part.
>
> Traveler, beware!
>
> Martha
+ - Re: RE>Szabadsagharc (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 01:17 AM 5/22/96 +0100, Tamas Kocsi wrote:

>Balogh Eva wrote:
>>I was the head of the student association at my dormitory;
>
>You mean you were a leader of the DISZ, the stalinist youth
>association ?? This'd explain a lot to me.

        No, I wasn't!! About a month before the outbreak of the revolution
there were new, free, secret elections by the student body. I was freely
elected by very rebellious students. Prior to that the DISZ secretary was
appointed by  the party.

>>I was a member of the Budapest Revolutionary Student Council;
>
>Well, when my father went first in to the University (BME)
>during those days, his first impression was very depressing.
>He found on the steps of the entrance a DISZ leader, one of
>the worst blood-mouthed communist one, dressed as Che Gueva-
>ra, from tip to toe in army green,decorated with innumerable
>hand grenades, and loads of machine gun ammunitions,shouting
>orders.

        I don't see what that has to do with me. Also, there is something
wrong with your chronology. Che Guevara came a bit later.

>>I would have been a part of the Imre Nagy trial
>
>I believe, you overemphasize a little bit your importance,
>don't you ?

        No, I don't think so. Our publication was mentioned in the indictment.

>>if I hadn't decided to emigrate in the middle of December
>
>Of course it was a wise decision, 'cose you were DISZ leader
>before, and after the revolution the more and most stupids
>among you ran back to daddy (the Party) to compete in to be-
>tray each other.

        Your imagination runs away with you, dear Tamas. Besides attacking
me personally, without the slightest knowledge who I was and what I did.
Just go ahead and show how it is done in Hungary! You are a living example
of those people some of us are talking about: intolerant, accusing,
libelous, and very, very low. One could go on and on.


>cordially,

        My foot.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Eva revisionism (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Reading the reply of Tamas Kocsis to Eva Balogh's bragging, as:

>I believe, you overemphasize a little bit your importance,
>don't you ? ....You mean you were a leader of the DISZ, the
>stalinist youth association ?? This'd explain a lot to  me.

Gives me a clue, that there are other platforms where Eva's
stories provoke nothing, but doubts and laughter.

And it point to the very reason why Eva attacked Forum so
venomously.
There the "Nazi scumbags" did not want to take her  self-
promoting stories at face value. They were not  impressed
by her sentences all starting as " I WAS ".

They cared a great deal of " What she is now " because the
her past is just the product of her political fairy  tails,
as far as her involvement concerned in the 56 "Freedom Fights".

And the present shows a person whose image just does not match
of her stories.

Whoever raised any doubts about Eva's stories, became the
target of her labels. I wonder what is going to happen with
Mr. Kocsis ?

To make sure, that he can not get away of myth assassination
few complaining lines could be dropped on the Forum and Szalon
just in case! :-)))

Cordially,

NPA.
+ - Re: Travel in SErbia (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Wed, 22 May 1996, Eva Durant wrote:

> I've heard about these robberies of sleeping
> train-passengers, but it never happened to me
> our to anyone I know. Had any of them really
> happened, and where?
>
> Eva Durant
>
I understand this has happened in Serbia, south of Belgrade on some
routes. I have also heard of this in Romania and Ukraine, but the latter
two I have seen nothing in the press about it.

darren
+ - A few afterthough to Tamas Kocsis's piece (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Here are a few thoughts which occurred to me after I had sent off my answer.

At 01:17 AM 5/22/96 +0100, Tamas Kocsis wrote:

>Well, when my father went first in to the University (BME)
>during those days, his first impression was very depressing.
>He found on the steps of the entrance a DISZ leader, one of
>the worst blood-mouthed communist one, dressed as Che Gueva-
>ra, from tip to toe in army green,decorated with innumerable
>hand grenades, and loads of machine gun ammunitions,shouting
>orders.

        I am sending Tamas's piece to Bela Liptak, who was very active at
the Engineering School in those days (Budapesti Muszaki Egyetem =BME). I am
curious what he will think of it.

>>if I hadn't decided to emigrate in the middle of December
>
>Of course it was a wise decision, 'cose you were DISZ leader
>before, and after the revolution the more and most stupids
>among you ran back to daddy (the Party) to compete in to be-
>tray each other.
>
>On the other hand my father was a member of Nemzetorseg (Na-
>tional Guard), he did not see no one DISZ leader where the
>youths passed their leasure time with some shooting. He did
>not emigrate either. He biked till Hegyeshalom with a friend,
>but changed his mind there and turned back. No one denounced
>him later. He attributed to this beside the fact that in his
>unit everybody was such a naive,apolitical losers as him,all
>the guys who knew him there left Hungary after the "regret-
>table events".

        Most interesting conclusions can be drawn from this. Those who were
not "naive, apolitical losers," like Tamas's father, ended up on the gallows
or received life, or ten years, or whatever. That is, these were the "bad
guys," the politicos, the former DISZ secretaries. The "good guys" like
Tamas's father who served faithfully without fanfare in the National Guard,
on the other hand, got off scot-free. Thus, the real heroes were those the
Kadar regime didn't punish. Hmmm!

        And one more thing, if Tamas thinks that his piece is going to
impress the non-Hungarian members and readers of this list he is mistaken. I
am almost certain that the reaction will be negative. They will not think
highly of the "national right" for using tactics of the sort Tamas was using
here.

        And one more thing. Just because I refuse to write into the Forum, I
don't need all of you, who can handle English, start writing on this list. I
left the Forum for a reason.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Just me! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Balogh writes:

>And one more thing. Just because I refuse to write into the Forum, I
>don't need all of you, who can handle English, start writing on this
>list. I left the Forum for a reason.

Of course. Because there were questions. Naughty questions. And who
wants to answer to those?
And as far as some of the people coming from there....Do not invite
them by using their articles or names behind their back.

NPA.
+ - I stop... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Lectoris Salutem!

        In a posting I was referred to as follows:
        "Don't you think that there is a ring of inferiority complex in
your writings? Also a certain amount of finger pointing: it is all your
fault, it is all your fault! What about us? Are we entirely blameless?
        Eva Balogh"

        To the ad hominem attack (inferiority complex, assumption of
childish repetition of unchanged phrases) of the first two sentences of
the above text I did not give (to my knowledge) any reason or ground.
Therefore I stopped arguing about the interesting topics...
        To the third and forth sentences my reply was:
        "YOU ... are entirely blameless...",
and recognized my (our) being guilty...

        And now I am said I should be ashamed of these...
        I did not start it... but now I am, who stops...

        May God bless us all...         kadargyorgy

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