At no time have I advocated any return to any
old days. What I advocate is a system, where
wealthproduction and distribution has democratic
control by society. To my knowledge, no such
system ever existed in Hungary, or elsewhere.
You advocate a capitalist system in which
there is an equal opportunity for wealth and power
for everyone, that has never existed either,
but has been tried much longer than any
alternative suggestions.
The moral and intellectual inpact of my preferred
future seem to offer more then yours.
And I am advocating it without being personal...
Anyway, "okos enged, szamar szenved", my responses were
comprehensive, you chose personal attacks, so you
are the one who run out of decent arguments.
Cheer up
with the thought, that not everyone who attacks
capitalism, or admits to some positive features in the
last 40 years of Hungarian history, want to bring back
any types of totalitarianism. As you are obviously not
capable of believing this, I ignore your abuses from now.
PS: goats are beautiful animals, you shouldn't use them
as a term of abuse.
Eva Durant


>
> In article >, Eva Durant
> > writes:
>
> >If you are abusive, at least you should be consistent.
> >It was your idea, that I was evil. I remember it, as
> >amused me for sometime.    I do not use such
> >medieval concepts unless prompted to.
> >Eva Durant
> >
> >
>
> "Medieval concepts"? No wonder you're such a relentless advocate of
> returning to the good old days of Gero. You are treading back onto
> unstable ground with this. Remember the many posts in which I tried to get
> you to make some accounting for the moral and intellectual impacts your
> cherished Marxist-Leninist system inflicted on those unlucky enough to
> live under it? You never would answer my questions then and I sincerely
> doubt you are any more willing or able to answer them at all now, much
> less do so honestly. Any critique you might offer of anyone else's system
> is, in effect, rendered irrelevant by your own hypocrisy.
> Sam Stowe

In article >, Eva Durant
> bleats in an approved fraternal socialist
manner:

>At no time have I advocated any return to any
>old days. What I advocate is a system, where
>wealthproduction and distribution has democratic
>control by society. To my knowledge, no such
>system ever existed in Hungary, or elsewhere.
>You advocate a capitalist system in which
>there is an equal opportunity for wealth and power
>for everyone, that has never existed either,
>but has been tried much longer than any
>alternative suggestions.
>The moral and intellectual inpact of my preferred
>future seem to offer more then yours.
>And I am advocating it without being personal...
>Anyway, "okos enged, szamar szenved", my responses were
>comprehensive, you chose personal attacks, so you
>are the one who run out of decent arguments.
>Cheer up
>with the thought, that not everyone who attacks
>capitalism, or admits to some positive features in the
>last 40 years of Hungarian history, want to bring back
>any types of totalitarianism. As you are obviously not
>capable of believing this, I ignore your abuses from now.
>PS: goats are beautiful animals, you shouldn't use them
>as a term of abuse.
>Eva Durant

Your criticisms are always couched in terms of Marxist-Leninist dialectic.
Contrary to your sanitized version of recent world history,
Marxism-Leninism got an extensive trial in dozens of nations throughout
the world during the past 50 years. It's not coincidental that governments
based on that ideology collapsed completely the moment the people in those
nations thought they could boot out the communists without incurring
Russian military invention. (Those were the guys tearing up the Ulloi ut.
and much of the rest of Budapest in autumn, 1956, weren't they? Not
American Marines on a two-week pass?) To avoid responsibility for your own
participation in propping up a communist regime, you trot out the old saw
that "we really haven't tried Marxism yet." Yes you have. It didn't work.
You need to find a new world view. By the way, you might avoid this
criticism in future by not trying to illustrate how things should be in
your brave new world through referring back to the way things worked in
your idyllic little Marxist village during the golden era of Kadar.

Thanks for mischaracterizing my own beliefs about what constitutes a
workable socio-economic system. By doing so, you prove once again that
you're so busy spouting out your own tired, discredited dogma that you
can't listen to what anyone else has to say. Tell me, though -- does this
dog and pony show of yours still get widespread approval from the teeming
masses when you visit Hungary or is it simply that innate sense of decorum
most Hungarians have that prevents them from wringing your neck like a
barnyard chicken when you start babbling to them about the good old days?
Sam Stowe

P.S. -- How do you digest those tin cans and old boots?

In article >,  (Stowewrite)
says:
>
>Your criticisms are always couched in terms of Marxist-Leninist dialectic.
>Contrary to your sanitized version of recent world history,
>Marxism-Leninism got an extensive trial in dozens of nations throughout
>the world during the past 50 years. It's not coincidental that governments
>based on that ideology collapsed completely the moment the people in those
>nations thought they could boot out the communists without incurring
>Russian military invention. (Those were the guys tearing up the Ulloi ut.
>and much of the rest of Budapest in autumn, 1956, weren't they? Not
>American Marines on a two-week pass?) To avoid responsibility for your own
>participation in propping up a communist regime, you trot out the old saw
>that "we really haven't tried Marxism yet." Yes you have. It didn't work.
>You need to find a new world view. By the way, you might avoid this
>criticism in future by not trying to illustrate how things should be in
>your brave new world through referring back to the way things worked in
>your idyllic little Marxist village during the golden era of Kadar.

When Ms Durant writes *we really haven't tried Marxism yet* isn't she
saying that idealists like Imre Nagy *tried* to implement the real
socialism untainted by the self-interest of political careerists and
thugs? Allende in Chile tried something similar (whether successfully, or
not, is another discussion) and look at what happened to him. It is very
debatable whether real Marxist-Leninism has, in fact, ever been properly
implemented, so being as categorical as you are about it never having
worked seems a bit OTT, don't you think? Ms Durant would clearly like to
give the *real thing* a go; don't you see any positive possibilities at
all in that idealism?

I'm not necessarily advocating Marxism, myself, but I'm just trying to
understand the point that Ms Durant is making. I wish you'd do the same
instead of stooping to the *goat* nonsense and milking it ;-) all the time
with stuff like: *P.S. -- How do you digest those tin cans and old boots?*
A one-off might be okay (if you've got a real bee in your bonnet) but this
obsessive thing with goats/Ms Durant seems very Freudian...

Regards,

George

George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address: 
* Independent Commodore Products Users' Group UK * C=64 stuff wanted *
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Dear Karen/Jim, et al;

At 01:52 PM 3/25/96 +0000, you wrote:

>I'm forwarding the following query from the Habsburg list.
>
>jim. (still lurking)
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 16:38:05 -0600
>From:
>To: Multiple recipients of list HABSBURG >
>Subject: Query: Hungarian greeting
>
>Karen Hobbs > forwards this etymological query. I've
>often wondered about it myself.  Is the Hungarian word a medieval or later
>loan word from Austrian speech?--Editor
>
>
>I have received the following from a US Army Major stationed with the
>peace-keeping troops in Hungary.   Is there a Habsburg subscriber who might
>be able to answer his question about the informal greeting mentioned below?
>
>Karen Hobbs
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Next Monday I begin studying Hungarian here with the University of
>Maryland. The University of Maryland is one of three colleges offering
>courses here in Hungary on US installations.  I am really looking forward
>to it!
>
>I also discovered something interesting.  Here in Hungary there is an
>informal greeting that is pronounced "sair-voos". [spelled szervusz--Ed.]
>That is very similar to the pronunciation of the Southern German and
>Austrian greeting of "Servus". [Latin for servant--Ed.] I am curious as to
>the origin of the word, and whether or not it is a recent lingual
>acquisition here in Hungary or if it goes back to the Empire days.
>
>Major T. Sean Schultz

>
>
I'm a history and anthropology major, not a full-linguist, but I have
studied something of the history of the Magyar language along the way.  It
is of "Latin derivation", but may come in even earlier than 1526.  The House
of Anjou ruled Hungary before the Habsburgs and spoke French.  "A votre
servis"  (at your service) is a common, ancient French expression used in
similar manner to the Hungarian "szervusz."  "Servicio" is an Italian
expression. While Austria-Hungary did rule parts of Italy from time to time,
I think it more likely it is from the French influence, since they had
higher status in the royal courts than Italians and thus would have been
better able to set standards for manners and their corresponding
expressions.  It's highly improbable that the expression would have survived
from the Roman occupation of Hungary 2,000 years ago.

Keep reading this group's postings however.  I'm sure you'll get several
opinions.

Sincerely,

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA
tel. & fax: 408-223-6102
e-mail: 

N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Good work on the weapons bill.

In article >,  (George
Szaszvari) writes:

> I wish you'd do the same
>instead of stooping to the *goat* nonsense and milking it ;-) all the
time
>with stuff like: *P.S. -- How do you digest those tin cans and old
boots?*
>A one-off might be okay (if you've got a real bee in your bonnet) but
this
>obsessive thing with goats/Ms Durant seems very Freudian...
>
>Regards,
>
>George

George:
Thank you very much for taking time from your public courtship of Joe
Szalai to respond to my post. Interesting, isn't it, that she waited a
couple of weeks after I posted that remark to respond to it, even though
she posted plenty of responses on other topics in the interim. She wants
to bring it back up again, I'm more than happy to milk it. Oops, getting
Freudian again, aren't we? Good luck with Joe. He's a nice guy.
Sam Stowe

P.S. -- Glad to see you idealists sticking together. You have yet to prove
that Marxism-Leninism hasn't been tried -- and you won't be able to.