First, I would like to ask Miklos Hoffmann not to copy very long
writing in their entirity. We read it once and I don't think that it is
necessary to read the whole thing again.
        Second, as for engineering was concerned. The country was cut off
from the west only for a few years and most likely the material they taught
you at BME was solid engineering. I am not talking about mathematics,
physics, or engineering. I repeated it I don't know how many times that
those faculties were most likely a great deal more solid than the arts and
the social sciences.
        Third, I am not sure what you mean by "dull." But it was also very dull
.
        ESB

Just as I predicted the Torgyan affair has not come to an end with
Torgyan's announcement that the lustration committee found him free of any
charge of cooperation with the secret service.
        Istvan Lovas published two articles on the HAL Forum. The first one
was an interview with Torgyan for the *Uj Magyarorszag,* and the second, a
rather incoherent piece which accuses the liberal press of a renewed witch
hunt. He criticizes a tv program, 16 Ora, for conducting an unfair interview
with Torgyan. But other journalists are also accused of all sorts of
anti-Torgyan attitudes: Nepszabadsag, Nepszava, just to mention two.
        I must admit that Lovas's interview with Torgyan (UjMao) did have
lines which left me wondered. For example, Torgyan claimed that instead of
agreeing to spying on his fellow citizens, he lectured the secret service
agents about his believes in a multi-party democracy. Knowing the atmosphere
of 1957-58 it is hard to imagine a conversation of that sort. Especially
while the person in question is working for the notorious Tutsek Court.
        ESB

DANUBE wrote:
>
> > At 02:18 PM 8/15/97 -0400, Jeliko wrote:
> >
> > >It also fascinates me that people are discussing the quality of diploma
> > >works, solely on basis of some journalistic description without ever havin
g
> > >read any of them. At least at BME you were required to be familiar with
 your
> > >references, before applying or using them.
>
>    I agree with Jeliko's comment and I would like to make some of my
> own:
>
>      1. I fail to see any reason why there is a need to belittle MIT
>         or any other such school, like BME,
>      2. Any higher educational  institution accredited  to award ad-
>         vanced degree is  a university  ranked one  even the word is
>         not in the name.
>      3. Neither do I see any reason to  belittle diplomas from tech-
>         nikums, like the vizugyi one. Those diplomas  give more than
>         just matriculation  by having written  an essay in Hungarian
>         grammar. Those people have aquired a professional qualifica-
>         tion beside the essay.
>      4. And there is nothing inferior in learning a decent trade.  I
>         would love to see some of us with advanced education to sur-
>         vive without them.
>      5. There is a  difference in the  quality of  education between
>         schools (secondary or higher education) from different parts
>         of any country. Why is the same a sin in Hungary?
>      6. How many people have conducted research before 1945,  in law
>         or any other field in Hungary? Not many. If that is the case
>         there is not much base to criticize  Hungary of the 50's for
>         such lack.
>      7. I don't care for Torgyan, but I refuse to blame him for try-
>         ing to survive at a trying time. He was writing his dissert-
>         ation according to  the requirements of the  time and wanted
>         to get on with his life.  Let's stop being  hypocritical and
>         stop criticizing a person from the  hindsight and benefit of
>         40+ years.If you don't like what he has done later as a law-
>         yer or politician, criticize him for that.
>      8. There is no way ESB will give any credit to Horn, regardless
>         of the quality of his dissertation, or for anything else. In
>         her eyes he is not to be forgiven. The way I look at it,  he
>         has lived down any sin, if he ever had any,by saving Hungary
>         from economic disaster.
>    Perhaps we should keep these in mind before we become condescend-
> ing toward others' education or anything else.
>                                                 Amos
Speaking, well, writing <out of my heart>
Miklos

E.S. Balogh wrote:

I am not going to comment the previous remarks. Some of that was
repetion of redigested argument. Especially the one around BME.
Rest assured, we are aware of your singular opinion.

But I think the following slight differentiation should be considered:

>
>         What are you saying? That before 1945 the educational level of
> Hungarian universities were inadequate? I doubt that very much.

So do I. It4s possible, there were week areas. On the whole, loke Eva,
I think there was no dull picture.

I am almost
> certain that the 1950s was a low point in Hungarian higher education.

I think, I could agree on stating that the trend was dull indeed.
I could consent to saying, the first derivate ( over time ) of the
quality ( dq/dt ) was at it lowest. But not the quality itself : the
university weren4t yet fully <purified>, the system couldn4t yet efford
to replace the Pattanytyus-s an the like and - partilly - the teams
working for them. There was a lot of <old> quality around there.

Now I
> realize that you were a student at that time and perhaps you take this
> personally.

I my impression, the contributions have - almost? - nothing to do with
this.

However, I was also a student at the time and if I can say the
> above I assume you will be able to admit it too. Not the end of the world.

Not, indeed.

> not the highlights of my educational experience.

I still can rely on a lot I got there. And I observe the same with
others I met there. At least partially, darned good engineers were
made there in those days - using international requirements in technical
sciences ( and practical application ) as the yardstick.
Miklos

Mark & Telle wrote:
>
> Would anyone on this newsgroup provide me with some information on the
> University of Veterinary Science in Budapest.
> I would also appreciate some information about the current living cost in
> Budapest.
> Thank You
Your request was relayed to UVS in Budapest. It4s weekend right now -
have some patience.
MKH

Amos Danube writes:

>         I don't care for Torgyan, but I refuse to blame him for try-
>         ing to survive at a trying time. He was writing his dissert-
>         ation according to  the requirements of the  time and wanted
>         to get on with his life.  Let's stop being  hypocritical and
>         stop criticizing a person from the  hindsight and benefit of
>         40+ years.If you don't like what he has done later as a law-
>         yer or politician, criticize him for that.

Indeed, this constant harping on who's done what under the ancien regime
is one of the least productive, ugliest, and most exasperating aspect
of political discourse in Hungary.  It creates a kind of atmosphere
reminescent of the fifties in America, where having had a commie
girlfriend in the thirties could doom a man's career twenty years later.
Except that in Hungary no one's career is getting ruined: after all, the
electorate in its wisdom put the ex-commies back in office after a four
year hiatus, knowing full well who they were and where they came from.

On the other hand, a politician who is basing his political persona on
being a staunch anti-Communist naturally invites a certain amount of
scrutiny, and is obviously more vulnerable to charges of inconsistency or
even dishonesty if it turns out that he cooperated willingly with those
very commies he is railing against.  Having been an ex-Communist is
apparently no liability for Horn because he never denied (nor could he
deny) his Communist past.  The voters knew all about it and voted for him
anyway.  A politician running on an anti-communist platform may find
that he can't get off quite as easily.

The situation in the U.S. is not all that different.  Clinton and Quayle
were both draft-dodgers in the sixties, but being a draft-dodger hurt
Quayle much more than it hurt Clinton, because Quayle is the one who was
trying to appeal to the super-patriotic crowd.  When a Hollywood actor
is caught with a prostitute then the talk show hosts have a field day,
everyone giggles, and life goes on.  But when a fundamentalist preacher
is caught with a prostitute then his career is ruined.  Life is unfair
that way...

-----
Gabor Fencsik